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Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

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Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby durk » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:22 pm

Hi AI traffic developers,

Following up on my post in the Scenery Forum, I was just wondering if there would be some interest in developing a ground network file for KGNC as well as some traffic patterns (mainly some small commuter jet and some GA traffic would be nice.

As explained in the Scenery forum, I am asking this because I'm preparing a helicopter demo flight in the Grand Canyon area, and some action in the scenery would be nice.

In theory, this is something that I could probably do myself, but I'm both a bit pressed for time, and I have the feeling that others have become much more of an expert in designing traffic than I am.

Given that this helicopter flight is also commemorating 20 years of FlightGear, some liveries of the AI aircraft highlighting this fact might also be a nice touch. :-)

Already many thanks in advance!!!

Cheers,
Durk
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby legoboyvdlp » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:45 pm

Do you want AI scenarios, or AI traffic?
AI traffic will require livery work. Thus, I think AI scenarios would be best.
Jonathan
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby legoboyvdlp » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:25 pm

Is something like this what you are looking for?
Image
https://www.dropbox.com/s/khw75xb0bmszomc/flightgearlivery.zip?dl=0
I'll add this to the shared models if you approve, and add some on the apron. It can be used as an AI or scenery or aircraft model.
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby durk » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:21 am

legoboyvdlp wrote in Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:45 pm:Do you want AI scenarios, or AI traffic?
AI traffic will require livery work. Thus, I think AI scenarios would be best.
Jonathan


Technically speaking, it's not required to do any additional livery work for traffic. The system does allow you to use any aircraft, including non-ai ones. See for example fgdata/AI/Traffic/misc/WooningAviation.xml, for an example that we made a couple of years ago for FSWeekend (giving some traffic at EHLE).

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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby gooneybird » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:16 am

I can do you some GA traffic, how many are you wanting?
My Github repository (mostly AI stuff) https://github.com/gooneybird47
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby durk » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:41 am

Awesome, thanks! Just a light amount of traffic would be nice.

Cheers,
Durk
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby gooneybird » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:57 am

I can easily adapt my test traffic, 12 aircraft and a flight every 5 minutes if that's ok.
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby gooneybird » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:06 am

Good news, we have traffic :)

Image

Bad news, It's not behaving itself :(

Image

The AI takes off ok but when it gets to a certain point on approach they go into a permanent holding pattern!
More testing needed.
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby gooneybird » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:14 pm

Traffic file tested at other airports and works fine but still having the same problems at KGCN, ground network also checked out ok in Taxidraw.

Here's the groundnet and traffic file if someone wants to test it on a current version of FG.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/rip22jop9dxx6cd/KGCN.zip
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby portreekid » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:00 pm

Reading about the helicopter demo flight. There aren't any ai-helicopters around. Does anybody know if the ai code could handle it? Would be another idea for my AI Scotland projekt which keeps being rescheduled.
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby gooneybird » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:41 pm

We played around with an AI helicopter scenario a few years ago but could not get it to work to our satisfaction, may be you will have more luck than we did.
https://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8648
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Re: Traffic and Ground Network for KGCN

Postby Hooray » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:08 pm

When it comes to the hard-coded AI/scenario system, there are a number of restrictions in place, even just when dealing with fixed-wing aircraft - flug mentioned a number of these on and off over the years in the context of his dog-fighting addon - Durk seemed generally supportive of addressing these eventually -however, more recently, he seems to have realized that a completely different approach is needed - which is summarized at: http://wiki.flightgear.org/FGTraffic

In the meantime, a scripted (Nasal-based) approach is likely to provide the most bang for the buck - at least for the time being: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Scripted_AI_Objects
Curt even once implemented a whole piloting-scheme in Nasal space:



This would be based on the method used by tanker.nas, i.e Durk's AI system merely being used to instantiate the 3D model, with all the high-level logic residing in scripting space, possibly augmentioned through other C++ hooks (e.g. PID controllers). More recently, a number of core developers discussed the same approach on the devel list: http://wiki.flightgear.org/FGTraffic#Scripting

Thorsten recently summed up these restrictions:
Thorsten wrote: Right now what we can do is have property rules (or AP tags) prepared at startup time and (at least in JSBSim) we can switch the channel to active when we need it, but we can not dynamically instance property rule or AP computing chains.



Note that this would be fully in line with Torsten's original plans on providing a scripting-space enabled version of his property rules, so that these would not need to be fixed or pre-defined in a static fashion - which is a restriction that is also limiting other areas in FlightGear, where the same subsystem could be a great technology-enabler (e.g. most Canvas animations could be handled that way, which would allow us to get rid of tons of Nasal callbacks invoked via timers and listeners).

Torsten's original idea being this:
Subject: 2 Questions: vacuum & electrical

Torsten wrote:I think, performance of Nasal code and XML based property rules is pretty close. The big advantage of the property rules is that they don't produce garbage that a garbage collector has to clean up. But as nothing in life comes for free (except FlightGear, of course) XML tends to be much more verbose - as you correctly stated.

[...]

I have recently committed some code to allow runtime loading of <strike>autopilots</strike> property rules and have a Nasal binding for that in mind. This _might_ end up in something like
Code: Select all
var myPid = pidController.new();
myPid.Td = 0.0001;
myPid.Ti = 123.4;
myPid.Kp = 0.2;
myPid.input = "/foo";
myPid.reference = "/bar";
myPid.output = "/baz";

etc, etc.


There's actually a long-standing list of ideas on reusing the autopilot/property rule system for such purposes: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Nasal/CppBin ... erty_Rules
Last edited by Johan G on Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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