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2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Installing FlightGear, scenery, aircraft etc. on Linux systems like Ubuntu.

2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby sgofferj » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:26 am

Hi,

I haven't had much time for flying in like 1,5 years. I recently updated my system from Opensuse 12.1 to 12.3.
My first shock - the FG unstable repo where I used to get my FG doesn't have any current version.
Luckily, the Opensuse packages seemed reasonably current. Install - of course - went totally wrong, because I had so much modified - the Opensuse package manager doesn't touch stuff that was modified by the user, so I backed up my data, deleted $FG_ROOT and installed again.

Well, still nothing but problems... Segfault when I exit the sim, segfault when I close the dialog for rendering settings, no random buildings, ... FG even somehow triggered the surge protection of my motherboard! THAT is new!
Atlas' map creation tool also fails...

All in all, absolutely unusable!

Is there any chance that the OSBS FG unstable repo would be revived?
FG 3.1 GIT / Opensuse 12.3 / Phenom II X4 / GForce GTX560
Stefan's little Flightgear corner | The Finnish Weather Center | Wolves in Finland

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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby saiarcot895 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:21 pm

I'm not an expert on OpenSuse, but it seems that (based on this page) 2.12 is available for OpenSuse 12.3.

Also, would you have to manually update simgear and the data files as well, or are those automatically updated as well?
Saikrishna Arcot

My FlightGear PPAs: FlightGear Stable, FlightGear Development (Edge)
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby Hooray » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:39 pm

Welcome back!

Well, you could have run a forum/devel list search.

According to the OpenSuse website, ThorstenB started the whole project - you may want to get in touch with him, but be aware that, according to git commit logs and the devel list archives, he's currently not actively involved in FlightGear.

http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear- ... 38863.html
he cross-platform build is disabled for FG because building for other
distros isn't just a matter of flipping a switch.

First, you need to ensure that all the dependent libraries are
available. And when you check the OBS repositories, you'll notice very
few packages provide support for other distros. So, you'll need to start
bottom-up, take care of lots of packages, OSG, dependent graphics and
sound libraries - and lots stuff that they depend upon. The OBS
cross-platform support was introduced years ago, but few package
maintainers have adopted it.

Next, you'll need to make sure that the build spec file works for other
distros. Each distro comes with their subtle differences. Even in
between versions: it's sometimes funny enough to build a spec file which
works with several versions of the same distro (sometimes you need to
install the "libsvn" package, sometimes it's "libsvn-1"). After all, you
will still need to deal with every single distro.

The advantage with Linux is: it is free and everyone can adapt it. The
disadvantage is: Linux distros actually use their freedom. Linux is not
like Windows, where you build a binary and it just runs everywhere
(well, yes, mostly). It's a flexible platform which every distro somehow
adapts to their own needs and likes - sometimes maybe even intentionally
to distinguish themselves from others.

Also, each distro maintains its own "app store" (well, they don't call
it like that, but it's really what it is - except that it's all free)
and many, if not most users will even refuse to install stuff from other
sources (considering separate installers too difficult - or fearing it
could mess up their system or trigger update problems). So, universal
binaries aren't even welcome everywhere.

I only "adopted" the OpenSUSE packages, which helps with finding things
causing problems with packaging, like incomplete "install" rules,
missing icons, invalid ASCII encodings in documents/READMEs, or with
different compiler versions (the OBS build currently uses 4 different
GCC versions). All the stuff, which isn't noticed when building stuff
locally - but which prevents building a proper package or having it
accepted into a distro. I can fix these things directly in FG, which
should make things easier for other packagers.

What I have also tried for the FG 2.8 release, was getting in contact
with other package maintainers. Reminding them of the new release,
giving them some hints on what needs to be changed. Many have updated
their packages pretty quickly - which may already be an improvement (see
below). When possible, I'm also taking patches "upstream", so they don't
need to mess with adapting local patches for every release (yes, the
infamous shared library thing is an example). This helps with speeding
up the updates.

But at times you notice live is really short. You really need to think
about what you want to do, and on which things you really want to spend
your precious spare time on. And do I personally want to be responsible
for building a package that runs on *any* Linux distro in the universe -
and to somehow take care of all their ugly tweaks? To be frank: no.

The advantage of the current approach is: it distributes the work. It
involves people which actually know and care about their individual
distros - and, at least I do not need to do it all on my own. Yes, it
may mean there's an extra latency before a new version becomes available
for some distros. But is it really _so_ bad, like Debian users
apparently seeing an 8 month delay? Or that Linux users may need to
update their OS every 2 years (well, you have to update anyway, since
maintenance and security updates stop). Also, to me it feels like the
really hard-core Linux FlightGear people, which _really_ care about
running the very latest version (people like you!), even consider FG 2.8
outdated - and directly run Git instead. Updating weekly... ;-)

If, however, anyone feels he could do it - provide a universal
installation - or run a build which produces packages for every distro -
you'll surely get my support. I'm also happy to accept merge requests on
the OBS, if anyone can really get the cross-platform build to work.


OpenSuse's build studio can use the OpenSuse build farm to build updated packages, even for non-RPM distros: http://software.opensuse.org/download.h ... FlightGear

http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear- ... 38818.html

he nice thing is: the openSUSE Build Service is not limited to openSUSE.
Packages can be created for Debian, Fedora, Mandriva and Ubuntu as well. And
once you got that set up, it's very little work to maintain.

I think this could be a great way to make FlightGear better available to Linux
users.

Binary releases on Linux are /possible/ but a pain - working with each distro's
packaging system is definitely the way to go, in my opinion. We have plenty of
servers to host such things, and Jenkins to trigger builds (though the SUSE
system handles both of those things itself, I believe). I think what's missing
is Fedora / Ubuntu users with the right mix of motivation and knowledge to make
it happen for those distros...

As I said, I think the *only* thing missing is motivated Fedora and Ubuntu
users with sufficient knowledge of SRPMs/debs/scripting - keeping in mind we
already have official packages for those distros, created by people 'outside'
FG, *and* various developers here have worked hard to ensure the code builds
cleanly - that was the reason for support a shared-library mode in SimGear.

And I will gladly assist/review *any* code change that helps / simplifies /
reduces patches to make the above work - I really do want to see it happen -
I'm just clueless about Linux packaging!


I am not sure if ThorstenB granted OpenSuse access to other contributors, but if we have other FG users who are familiar with OpenSuse, it should be relatively straightforward to update things there - I am no longer using OpenSuse, but I have previously used SuseStudio and their build farm, and it's pretty straightforward, not to say awesome: http://susestudio.com/

https://build.opensuse.org/

Just do a search for "FlightGear" there and you should find a number of users who have previouslly built FlightGear, so you could try to get in touch with them to revive things.

For example, see :https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/games/FlightGear
We would ideally also update the wiki docs accordingly: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Howto:OpenSuse_10.3


The bottom line really being: http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear- ... 38876.html
Curt wrote:There are most definitely leaders in any
open source project -- they are those that bust their tails to do all the
hard work. It is therefore not an exclusive club. But it is a club you
need to earn your way into. It is not a club of ideas (although ideas are
certainly valuable.) It's not a club of suggestions or wishes. Leadership
in an opensource project is a club of action and doing. It is not the same
sort of top down leadership you would find in business or politics.
Volunteers do not respond well to being told what do to and having
deadlines imposed on them. Open Source leadership is the sort of
leadership that you might find in a group of climbers trying to scale a
high peak. Words often do not need to be spoken. The leaders are the ones
who step forward and do the hard work and make the way easier for everyone
following. Open-source is also not a perfect world -- as soon as humans
get involved in just about any endeavor we have communication challenges,
differences of opinions, misunderstandings, and all that rolled on top of
our own personal shortcomings (and we all have a few.) So it's important
to remember that we are all volunteers doing this for the fun of it, for
the challenge of it, for the experience. We are a group, we all have
different skills and bring a different perspective, and contribute in
different ways. Roles can evolve over time as the project evolves, as
people's life situations evolve.

Centralizing versus decentralizing an organization's structures is a debate
that goes on in every organization -- there is a dilbert cartoon about
that. In an imperfect world we are always seeking to improve the
situation, but every change brings pluses and minus so what sounds good
might not always be as big of a win once you play out all the consequences
and side effects and bring equilibrium back to the system.

Curt.



While I cannot help with OpenSuse specifics, I can help fix build related issues - however, any necessary patches would be best discussed via the devel list or issue tracker, and accompanied with upstream merge requests.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
Hooray
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby sgofferj » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:31 pm

Hooray,

Thorsten B's OSBS repo was the "FG unstable" repo I was referring to. That's what I have been using since Thorsten pointed me to it. The builds in there were always more functional and more stable than the packages from the official Opensuse distro. 2.12 is in the official Opensuse 12.3 distro and that's the one I have problem with.

Unfortunately, I am still a bit short on time due to other projects (your fault, you made me look deeper into software development with your excellent short courses and explanations and now I'm stuck in projects deeper and deeper :D :D :D), so I can't really look into building FG myself at the moment. I was hoping to get some info on the status of the repo, but seems, it looks grim...

At least I was able to eliminate the crashing when closing the rendering or other dialogs. I had to downgrade the pblib packages... About the crashes on leaving FG, I could probably generate some trace if anybody is interested. It's probably of limited use, though, because a bunch of debuginfo packages are not available.

-S
FG 3.1 GIT / Opensuse 12.3 / Phenom II X4 / GForce GTX560
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby Hooray » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:39 pm

well, you could try a cmake superbuild, which should pull in everything that's required: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Superbuild
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
Hooray
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby Philosopher » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:16 pm

Could it the segfault be related to #1231? https://code.google.com/p/flightgear-bu ... il?id=1231
Thanks,
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby sgofferj » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:43 am

I can't say. That's way above my skill level to diagnose.
Anyways, I opened a bug and provided traces for all threads - hoping that they are at least a little bit useful without debuginfo packages...

=> https://code.google.com/p/flightgear-bu ... il?id=1265

@Hooray:
I'll look into it, but there is a reason why I never tried to build FG myself... :). Scary stuff!

Edit:
@Hooray:
Umh... the link to the fgmeta repo runs into a 404 error...
FG 3.1 GIT / Opensuse 12.3 / Phenom II X4 / GForce GTX560
Stefan's little Flightgear corner | The Finnish Weather Center | Wolves in Finland

Working on: EFTP
COM: IAX2:home.gofferje.net/stefan (MO-FR 0700-2000 UTC, SA+SU 0900-2000 UTC)
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby sgofferj » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:57 pm

I just checked the FG unstable repo and noticed that zakalawe is also maintainer there...
I try to understand the whole system... If I manage to get through there, I would be volunteering as co-maintainer but project-related I have phases where I am away for longer times...
FG 3.1 GIT / Opensuse 12.3 / Phenom II X4 / GForce GTX560
Stefan's little Flightgear corner | The Finnish Weather Center | Wolves in Finland

Working on: EFTP
COM: IAX2:home.gofferje.net/stefan (MO-FR 0700-2000 UTC, SA+SU 0900-2000 UTC)
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby sgofferj » Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:56 pm

The Opensuse version is seriously messed up. It segfaults on any exit. Also there are bugs like window widths don't fit, in the radio window, no numbers are displayed in the transponder and TACAN code fields, Atlas is broken... I'm trying to compile from Git now myself. If it works and I have the time to research and get familiar with OSBS, I might try to set up an unstable repo there...
FG 3.1 GIT / Opensuse 12.3 / Phenom II X4 / GForce GTX560
Stefan's little Flightgear corner | The Finnish Weather Center | Wolves in Finland

Working on: EFTP
COM: IAX2:home.gofferje.net/stefan (MO-FR 0700-2000 UTC, SA+SU 0900-2000 UTC)
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby Hooray » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:04 am

if the precompiled version is that messed up, it's probably because of some mismatched dependencies, i.e. libraries like plib/osg etc not being up to date.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby sgofferj » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:11 am

Don't know. The versions look ok and Opensuse's package manager does a dependency check which includes version...
FG 3.1 GIT / Opensuse 12.3 / Phenom II X4 / GForce GTX560
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Re: 2.12 on Opensuse 12.3 - problems over problems

Postby Philosopher » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:21 am

Philosopher wrote in Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:16 pm:Could it the segfault be related to #1231? https://code.google.com/p/flightgear-bu ... il?id=1231


James introduced a small bug with sglog() at exit (before 2.12, fixed now, see above) that I strongly suspect is your issue (especially with your info on the bugtracker). You could always revert the commit if you want to test my theory ;).
Thanks,
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