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GPL vs. CC licenses for development

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GPL vs. CC licenses for development

Postby wlbragg » Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:47 pm

More generic license discussion split off from the topic Bell AH-1W SuperCobra. Quotes added for context.


S&J wrote in Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:44 pm:I'd advice you to use CC, as it gives you access to use FGUK's 3d, 2d and animation plus Bombers JSBsim helicopter code.

If what you produce is good enough people will find it through word of mouth.

Plus it can't be use to con people out of money by paying for Flightgear rip off.


wlbragg wrote in Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:12 pm:If you want it in the main FG repository then you need to use GPL. But then your work is truly free for anyone to do most anything with, within the GPL restraints of course. I would personally never recommend that someone use anything other than GPL if it is to be associated with FilghtGear, after all that is our entire philosophy.


@S&J
I don't understand your truly free comment.

Only that they are indeed free to "rip you off" as you mentioned. But also free to do other "legit" commercial projects as well.

I understand your reasoning and it is reasonable. But that is precisely why I am less enthusiastic about using a license other than GPL. It is now and forever under that license and I can't use any parts of it for my purposes on another GPL aircraft which would be part of my reason for wanting to help contribute in anyway I can.

@bell_pilot
As far as figuring out the license later on, I wouldn't be interested in working on a project unless It was GPL. That is the only way I can reuse any creation in other projects I am interested in that are GPL.

For what it's worth, I'm currently working on the YASim version of the AirCrane (GPL). I have always wanted a JSBSim version of the FDM to really do it justice but I don't have the background nor willingness to learn something so complex, at least at this stage. So when I hear of someone considering creating another JSBSim helicopter FDM version to possibly study from, I am encouraged. If it potentially is not going to be available for my purposes because of license, or lack of, then that isn't something I place at the top of my limited attention nor am I willing to invest time in.

Licensing matters!

I don't mean to hijack this development thread and turn it into anything other than developing the AH-1W. It's that if this new interest in revitalizing this project goes somewhere, I wish to try to steer it into the right direction, or at least a direction I might be able to leverage later on. My understanding is that CC would shut me out for my purposes.
Last edited by Johan G on Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: More generic license discussion split off from the topic "Bell AH-1W SuperCobra". Quotes added for context.
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby Johan G » Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:49 pm

wlbragg wrote in Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:12 pm:If you want it in the main FG repository then you need to use GPL. But then your work is truly free for anyone to do most anything with, within the GPL restraints of course.
S&J wrote in Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:41 am:I don't understand your truly free comment.

It is a hint at that it is less restrictive than some other licenses (and for example allow for commercial reuse). But like wlbragg I too think it still is worth using the GPL license.
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby S&J » Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:57 pm

I'm lost

The Huey uses a GPL 3d model and you can download a CC jsbsim flight model for it.

It works for me.
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby S&J » Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:59 pm

How much commercial re-use has every been fed back into the community at a content level ?
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby bell_pilot » Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:21 pm

S&J wrote in Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:59 pm:How much commercial re-use has every been fed back into the community at a content level ?


Yeah, I wonder the answer to this question too
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby wlbragg » Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:47 pm

The Huey uses a GPL 3d model and you can download a CC jsbsim flight model for it.

That's right, and that works for you. But it wouldn't work for me if I wanted to use that FDM in say, the AirCrane, and then include it in FGADDON.

My understanding is your suggesting "new " work to be done using CC so it can include existing CC work. That is precisely the issue, then I, nor anyone, can no longer use any of that work in any GPL project for FlightGear FGADDON. It shuts the door to pass it along. Stops it in it's tracks as it is meant to do. It is a snowballing effect that "limits" our project, "FlightGear", the one who's forum were communicating on right now from getting any potential benefit from that work.

I'm not trying to argue, just suggesting, if possible, GPL, is best for FlightGear project as a whole. But it may very well be CC is more productive because other work has already been done using it. That is the issue I have, now that CC work it is there competing against FG project philosophy and being suggested to use simply because it already exists.

Nothing more I can really say, I have already taken this farther than I wanted to in this thread. No offense meant. Just another point of view,
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby S&J » Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:00 pm

I don't see CC 'competing' against the Flightgear project philosophy.

At it's very basic level isn't it about sharing work, and allowing others within the FG community to build on it ?
And so grow the sim and it's content, in both quantity and quality ?

What have I missed that says that an outside commercial enterprise has an influence on what licence a content creator uses for the benefit of other flightgear users ?
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby wlbragg » Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:47 pm

At it's very basic level isn't it about sharing work, and allowing others within the FG community to build on it ?
And so grow the sim and it's content, in both quantity and quality ?


Right, how does CC help that? I can't use it in anything I want to put into FG core? That would be the main point!

Should I at some point decide to leverage something I spent hours on in FG (GPL) to make a few bucks, how can if it is combined with CC?
It's only useful for me to use and enjoy within the terms of CC. In the future I may want to be able to use and enjoy it withing the terms of GPL.

It's just another limit which is fine for someone who wants to protect against anyone making a dime from their work and that is OK, I get it. But that is not GPL nor FlightGear's philosophy thus it's competing and limiting to FlightGear if I can't use it or share it in FlightGear.
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby S&J » Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:05 pm

wlbragg wrote in Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:47 pm:
Right, how does CC help that? I can't use it in anything I want to put into FG core? That would be the main point!



Core what ?
We're talking about planes here, where did the core code come into it ?

wlbragg wrote in Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:47 pm:Should I at some point decide to leverage something I spent hours on in FG (GPL) to make a few bucks, how can if it is combined with CC?
It's only useful for me to use and enjoy within the terms of CC. In the future I may want to be able to use and enjoy it withing the terms of GPL.


You didn't spend any hours on the CC content, so why should you make money off someone who did spend hours on it.

wlbragg wrote in Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:47 pm:It's just another limit which is fine for someone who wants to protect against anyone making a dime from their work and that is OK, I get it. But that is not GPL nor FlightGear's philosophy thus it's competing and limiting to FlightGear if I can't use it or share it in FlightGear.


forgive me I didn't realise the FlightGear's philosophy was about making a buck, I thought it was about creating a flightsim as good as a commercial one, that was free for other to use.
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby wlbragg » Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:23 pm

Your taking this farther than I intended.

Core what ?
We're talking about planes here, where did the core code come into it ?

If I want to have my aircraft in fgaddon, I can't. If I want to translate any CC code or graphics of any kind into the core or any other FG aircraft in fgaddon, xml, nasal or converted to c and added to the source, I can't.

It's not about making a buck. It's about being able to make a buck should I choose to. If you don't want your work to benefit someone else financially, by all means use CC. But that isn't FG policy and that isn't GPL policy. I didn't create the policy, I am simply agreeing with it, that's why I contribute. I have no problem with someone selling my work, more power to them. I understand what I am creating is free to do with as you please, so can I. But that was never meant to be my main argument, that is only brought up because it is the argument of CC.

If I can't use it as I want, then I am not as interested in it. I don't want to work under that limiting factor. I don't use CC aircraft because I might see something I like but can't use for another FG aircraft that I ever intend to add to fgaddon. I like the freedom of GPL I don't like the "limiting" factor of CC and apparently the founders of FlightGear didn't either or it wouldn't be a GPL project. So why would I push for or agree to push for a CC option if I don't have to.
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby S&J » Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:31 pm

Your problem seems to be with FGAddon
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby wlbragg » Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:35 pm

Not entirely, any work that might be derived and used anywhere within the project.

If the new project will not get off the ground because no one want's to recreate existing CC work, the use it. But if you can make it all GPL, then it fits within the FlightGear umbrella and is more open for others to use under that umbrella.
Really not much more to it that that.

You suggested using CC, I disagree, if you don't have to. We both have stated our reasons.

If the existing work had been all GPL and not CC we would not be having this discussion, that is reason enough for me to not want to use it in this context.
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby S&J » Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:03 pm

I actually advised him to use the best available resources. So as to deliver the best product for us to fly.

Is that so wrong ?
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby bell_pilot » Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:50 pm

Guys, please stop arguing about licenses. I really dont care. Lets talk about what we can do for futureworks of the model.

Who will be the contributors?
To the developers:
You have a pilot who knows coding, flight mechs and dynamics and simulation. Also this pilot has all data you need. USE ME!
So, please stop arguing and LETS START TO WORK.
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Re: Bell AH-1W SuperCobra

Postby wlbragg » Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:13 pm

Is that so wrong ?

No, not at all, just a difference of opinion. If the man power or experience isn't available to do this GPL, then using existing CC might be the only way to go forward.

As @bell_pilot is apparently explaining, help is needed. I am not the one to help here and whoever does can and should dictate what to do and how to do it. I was just suggesting if possible I would stick to GPL.

I have no skin in the game so you all can carry on as you see fit.
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