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About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata ... )

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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby IAHM-COL » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:17 pm

yes . I know of your question.
I asked the same question in the devel list.

The answer there was that, in less than hundred words:

in Flightgear most of the git history is just useless, and thus the core devels attempted to rescue it only partly, on what they considered important. the rest was ditched away. Left in a repository waiting to die with gitorious.
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby IAHM-COL » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:22 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:45 pm:in other projects, you would have already been dropped from the dev list and may even be censored in the forums... i don't think that will happen here but still... time to move on and get past it...


Isn't this a way for you to indicate me that out of fear of being dropped from devel-list + even face more censorship in the forums, I must move on?

In my own words: Make my own decisions based on fear.

Oppositely to your belief. Mine is that unless obvious impolite behavior or direct violation of the pre-established rules of the forum and devel-list, having a dissident thought, opinion or evidence should not grant me censorship. Or being dropped.

Just because Curtis can do it, does nt mean that he should or is right on doing so.

As a matter of fact, instead of pairing with children like Geneb, he should recognize offense for what it is, and just stop sending deprecating images, and in addition restore my status as a "signed -on" in the devel-list. With equal priviledges as everyone else of broadcast questions, solutions and opinions.
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby curt » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:32 pm

I will delete my above comment because in retrospect, it wasn't 100% fair. I do think contrasting the normal style of calm and patient human communication, versus your style of turning every issue into a highly intense super drama is fair to make.
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby IAHM-COL » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:39 pm

Hi Curtis
I thought you actually retracted your image.
But you only retracted your laughing at Geneb's.
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby curt » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:40 pm

Hi wkitty42: Aircraft history is still entirely preserved. It was just forked off into an archival repository so we could get the current repository size down to manageable levels.

Hi Israel, you may continue to fight. I am now sorry I tried to address you in any way at all.
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby IAHM-COL » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:43 pm

curt wrote in Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:40 pm:Hi wkitty42: Aircraft history is still entirely preserved. It was just forked off into an archival repository so we could get the current repository size down to manageable levels.

Great! :D

Is not this what I actually requested to the devel-list before I was placed in a "need-to-moderate-this-person" list by yourself?
Was my suggestion so totally unreasonable?
I am glad you guys decided to do this.


This is what I wrote in the devel list

bout the FGDATA branch problem (deletion of 2.12, 3.0, 3.2 and 3.4 branches, and other topics in FGDATA next), plus a transformation in the commit history

I think that is the problem I was talking about before Geneb ungently ordered me to <<Stop. Just stop>>

I know I had talk the problem, but not a solution.
Here would be my proposed solution


================================================================================
A solution to prevent disolution of the "past" of FGDATA along the FGDATA "next" transformation and a subsequent gitorious dissapearance
================================================================================


An archive FGDATA as it was left in gitorius needs to be made immediately, and such archive should exist in a perennial copy (outside gitorious)
The archive needs to maintain all commit logs existing. Regardless of pertinence
The archive needs to maintain all branch existing. Regardless of pertinence
As an archive, no one need copying acces


Hi Israel, you may continue to fight. I am now sorry I tried to address you in any way at all.


:shock:
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby wkitty42 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:35 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:17 pm:yes . I know of your question.
I asked the same question in the devel list.

The answer there was that, in less than hundred words:

in Flightgear most of the git history is just useless, and thus the core devels attempted to rescue it only partly, on what they considered important. the rest was ditched away. Left in a repository waiting to die with gitorious.

yes, that's their response but i'm asking for yours... why is the (air)craft history so important? all the updates are in the existing craft... i don't see why would anyone need or want to revert to an old version...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby wkitty42 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:51 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:22 pm:
wkitty42 wrote in Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:45 pm:in other projects, you would have already been dropped from the dev list and may even be censored in the forums... i don't think that will happen here but still... time to move on and get past it...


Isn't this a way for you to indicate me that out of fear of being dropped from devel-list + even face more censorship in the forums, I must move on?

no... not at all... i just pointed out that these guys are being nice and that other projects would and are not so nice... fear has nothing to do with it...

now, if i might present two things to consider... seriously consider the ramifications...

1. what happens when all those folks that drive the project have you filtered? they see nothing you write no matter how eloquent it may be, no matter how reasoned it may be or even that you may have spent hours or days composing it... what then? it falls on deaf ears, blind eyes... wasted... what then?

2. what would you do if your children (or employees) kept dogging on and on and on about something? if they acted like a bulldog with a rawhide hanging from a tree in his jaws refusing to let go or give up the fight? the dog won't let it go until it is completely and utterly destroyed and/or out of their grasp... what would you do if you were on the other side of the fence and others were having a go at you?

remember, i'm JANG (Just Another New Guy) to this hobby/project/recreation... i've been where you are and i've been on the other side as well... as a parent (BTW: i have 5 grand children), an employer and a project leader... i intend and offer no disrespect... indeed, that is a two-way street in which both sides participate... some say that you are not being respected while others say that you are not being respectful... not in your words but in the way you are approaching the situation... again, no disrespect from me... just please consider the above two questions and look at what has already happened and continues to happen...

one last thought... my mother, rest her soul, taught me that it takes a strong person to walk away from a fight... indeed, that it is better to not fight/argue/debate at all... make your side known and leave it at that... anything else is to foment the undesired and unwanted...

peace be with you...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby Johan G » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:38 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:35 pm:...why is the (air)craft history so important? all the updates are in the existing craft... i don't see why would anyone need or want to revert to an old version...

As I see it the commit history serves many functions:
  • First of all a complete commit history is also a complete list of people committing (who not necessarily are the same as the authors).
  • If if the commits have good commit messages, they also function as a rationale explaining why things was added.
  • Usually bugs can be tied to a certain commit, and rarely occurring bugs can be really old. This can sometimes help debugging.
  • Personally I can also see preserving history as good thing to do all in itself.
  • Etc.

wkitty42 wrote in Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:51 pm:...it takes a strong person to walk away from a fight... indeed, that it is better to not fight/argue/debate at all... make your side known and leave it at that...

Wise words. :)

@ IAHM-COL: I sense a lot of frustration, in part about the thrown away commit history. I have to say that I really appreciate your work in conserving it. :)
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby IAHM-COL » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:42 pm

thanks johan

Not much frustation about the history being thrown away

1) its conserved in FGMEMBERS
2) Curtis said is backed up in another archive repo. Gaining users read access will be ideal. But as soon as it is preserved, even as a historical landmark, it should be ok
3) The only problem for me is that while FGMEMBERs have all commit history, FGADDon does not.
Both repos therefore do not have a common "root" so they can't be treated as branch of one to the other and bidirectional syncing is rather complex, maybe undoable. Once I offered to reconstruct the SVN addon repo, but the reply by Torsten was:

"Too long. Did not read. No it will not be considered (referring to my offering)"

Therefore that path is totally truncated.


There are frustations indeed. But on my part they have no relationship to the commit log.

They have to do with
1) lack of respectful attitude towards others opinions in they don't directly align with one selves.
2) censorship at a developers level.
3) inability to find common grounds
4) inability (more unintent) to answer questions
5) a general bullying attitude

And all of the above are not a problem affecting some members attitude towards others, but more frustating, it is an attitude generalized, thanks to the fact that it is the path to take by many of the Leaders of the project. As I mentioned above, Curtis response to the whole issue is to treat me with deprecating images, and to censor my ability to express my ideas in the devel list. That is, and has to be, very frustating. Likewise, other project managers and leaders like Torsten and Thorsten will not spare head, and will stealthy battle against anyone that cares to differ with their opinion - one that needs no explanation (and this is respect to everything: from SCM to FDM, or ALS vs rembrandt, etc).

Clearly, the attitudes toward other contributors, and regulars users in general is of a total disregard. Ignore if able. Or attack (personally) if necessary. And if all fails, then censor the opinions.

Those things leave me completely frustated. And rather speecless, if I may dare say.

May I take one extra 100 words to also say, that in my opinion, James Turner is the only leader of this core-devel group that is not displaying unruly and uneducated behavior. Yes we have disagreed and agreed in opinions concomitantly. That has not prevented him to still treat me respectfully. And that has not prevented either of us to yield to each other when the point is there.

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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby Hooray » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:35 am

I think part of the problem revolves around your verbosity, as well as the language you're using - in addition, it is probably a bit difficult for people to follow your line of reasoning/arguing - and especially native English speakers are more likely to be offended by your choice of words than others are, as well as your perseverance. Also, I don't think you should be referring to other contributors as "project managers" - FlightGear is lacking any formal management - not even Curt refers to himself as the "project manager" (well, usually).

In summary, you may be well advised to review some wiki articles that were put together to explain how the project works, despite all its obvious shortcomings, including a community that may be rather harsh, frustrated and frustrating at times (more often than not admittedly).

To do that, I suggest to check out some of these links (and maybe the side bar on the wiki):

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15267
http://wiki.flightgear.org/How_the_Flig ... ject_works

Finally, I wouldn't read too much into derogatory images/postings made referring to you or your efforts - especially not because you appear "new" to some regulars on the deve list - some of the people who started this also don't have any visible FG involvement other than being either FG users, home cockpit builders or providers of some server infrastructure - this particular user you're referring to also isn't a FG core committer/developer. And it is up to you to use your own git skills to "grep" (git log -S) the sg/fg and fgdata logs to see if someone talking down on you actually has/had any tangible FG involvement or not.

James Turner is the only leader of this core-devel group that is not displaying unruly and uneducated behavior. Yes we have disagreed and agreed in opinions concomitantly. That has not prevented him to still treat me respectfully. And that has not prevented either of us to yield to each other when the point is there.


Indeed, these days, he's among those few people literally "running" the project, especially in terms of activity (commits and involvement), much more so than others - including many others who are much more outspoken - for some background, see: FG 3.4 HUD unreadable only on mac?

Equally, there are many others hanging around on the devel list, who have basically no visible involvement in core development matters - while some may indeed be former core developers, many have not committed to SG/FG in months or even years, while still trying to "shape" the project, despite no longer being as actively involved.

And even others, had put up sizable patches/merge requests that ended up never being reviewed/committed, despite those contributors holding several academical degrees in related fields, and others even pilot ratings. The FG project does have some pretty serious challenges to face, some of which are unfortunately not of technical nature, but a matter of people and personalities.

So take everything that's said there with a grain of salt, even former core developers that are generally respected among all contributors, are sometimes referring to the devel list as a pretty "bitter place", e.g.:

Subject: Turning off turbulence
daveculp wrote:This is why I don't submit a feature request or bug report. The answer is always so pat. And I don't visit the devel list either, because that unhappy place would be even unhappier if I was there.


Note that this posting was made long before you showed up on the devel list, so the problem has nothing to do with you. And FlightGear as a project is simply failing to attract all the expertise and skills that it so urgently needs due to this very "bitterness" - not just on the devel list though. We, as in "the forum", are just as much part of it - even though we are not as likely to alienate potential core developers, but much more likely alienate potential end-users and fgdata contributors. Several end-users and new forum users have repeatedly stated over the last few months that people like Thorsten or me belong to the camp of contributors "alienating" newcomers - and admittedly, I can relate to that meanwhile.
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby hamzaalloush » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:48 am

please stop arguing guys, all this does is put pressure on people who want to develop in one or the other repository, by making it personal they (aircraft developers) too are becoming "one of two camps".

i suggest we take the positives and leave out the negative from this one, as Horray says, let us focus on the documentation for the wiki now.
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:49 pm

hamzaalloush wrote in Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:48 am:please stop arguing guys, all this does is put pressure on people who want to develop in one or the other repository, by making it personal they (aircraft developers) too are becoming "one of two camps".

i suggest we take the positives and leave out the negative from this one, as Horray says, let us focus on the documentation for the wiki now.

+1

But also, I think Curtis should take the step back and stop censoring me on the devel-list. I made official requests, but he is one of the people here unable to bend.
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby Hooray » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:01 pm

you have to admit, that the whole debate has become kinda annoying - especially for those not the slightest bit interested in the whole effort, or in rehashing the whole discussion.
And your verbosity ("noise") isn't help your case either. Currently, you could make even perfectly legit postings, and would probably still be perceived as a distraction.
So I would suggest to let the dust settle and reconsider the way you want to spend your energy. Given that you obviously don't mind doing a ton of writing, your skills could be put to much better use by contributing to the wiki - for instance, by helping update/improve our git docs, and documenting specifics related to your particular repository.
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Re: About embracing contributions (split from Cloning fgdata

Postby hamzaalloush » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:18 pm

hi IAHM-COL, i really understand your case, i really do since moderation for you might be a little too much, and you feel personally it was unjustified as you were trying to voice the opinion of people that appeared to have been inclined for your proposition and your speaking on their behalf.

first of all, thanks for this great spirit to try and get something done, unfortunatly as with any orginization its run by people, and so they will be a little placed towards a side or the other, so that they can get things done, especially when a case like this arises where some involving people might not care about all the intrinsic details for the issue, and just want to get over running a developers mail list for other topics as well.

as with other member that did voice their opinion about not particulary caring, that's not your problem, nor anybody who ever want to implement your propositions for doing things, but we have to take that into consideration when thinking about the decisions taken, certainly i agree with you and will be using FGMembers as an infrastructure for developing aircraft since i like freedom and your versioning system supports that.

as to Curt, i really do not like to speak on his behalf, but we have to wait and see and i personally advice, that these PM conversations be kept private as you can have better negotiating this way. so at least, we take out from this a sub-forum if your solution gathers this much support, and a wiki article as well, and i'm with that..
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