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vATO's restructuring

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vATO's restructuring

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:55 pm

FG virtual Air Traffic Organization underwent a transformation

For the last few months I had been thinking on all the problems behind operations for virtual organizations, and particularly vATO. Our Events-based focus limits our activity largely. And Ive come to the realization of the need to shift the intent from the events to the members, and their progress.

For this reason, vATO is undergoing a transformation. And everyone that is willing to join is welcomed.

Are you interested in:
1) Flying simulation but emphasizing in your progress to become a more capable pilot?
2) Improving your flying skills and be a more knowledgful pilot?
3) Simulate a career-based program, and not only fly for VA's and Just accumulate hours?
4) Receiving certification that guarantees you have undergone standardized training for flight simulation purposes?
5) Helping grow a community of pilots striving for more fun and more commitment for FGFS?
6) Be trainee and trainer of better pilots, with higher standard in Aviate Navigate and Communicate?

If so, you may consider joining vATO's new pilot academy. To register you will need to be assigned an instructor who will walk you to your certification program. The program will consist of small theory reminders, but lots and lots of practical assignments that are expected to be completed with attention to detail, effort and honor. We welcome you to vATO.

Are you interested in:
1) Improve your skills and knowledge in Air Traffic control?
2) Belong and grow a community of Air Traffic controlers in FG that are certified to undergo standardized one on one instruction?
3) Be trainee and trainer of the FG members interested in ATC?
4) Count with a symbiosis of pilots that need good ATC service to progress, and a group of controllers that need pilots to progress thru the ranked system?

If so, you may consider joining vATO's new ATC academy. To register you will need to be assigned an instructor who will walk you thru your certification program. We welcome you to vATO!

PM IH-COL for more details, and Welcome to vATO :)
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:01 pm

A RANKED System

vATO is now a ranked system for pilots and ATCs.
In honor of this, no-one will be granted a level without completing ALL requirements to do so.
Your rank is an achievement you can display, that means: I HAVE COMPLETED the requirements. It does not mean: I could have completed those because I am so experienced.

This means that regardless of the level you currently in, to be certified, you will need to go thru the certification process.

As vATO CEO all I can tell you is: Do not let a big-ego to get in your path. The speed by which an individual complete the process is completely depending on their current level and their commitment level. That means, if you excel, you will be able to go thru the practical and theory demostrations with ease (and supersonic speed :P ). Always remember, the Academy certifies that anyone, regardless of initial level will be able to get fully ranked.
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:09 pm

pilot vATO callsigns

Our callsigns are our badge that indicates to all FG members our rank as vATO pilots.
You want to increase your level to be able to use a higher hierarchy badge in your callsign :D

How does this go?
We have 2 academies for pilots: Private Pilot License (begin, for GA). These use GA callsigns, which are assigned together with the instructor at the begin of the program.
The code of the country of representation is shown, then the level, and finally a 3 digit code for the pilot.
Levels: E (entry) --> A(Advanced).

IH-COL callsign: HKE-424
I will begin as HK (Colombia), E (entry) - 424
and I will progress until I am a Instrument Rated Pilot (IRL) with a callsign HKA-424


For the second academy, pilots will use airlines ICAO code (or virtual Airlines codes), plus their 3 digit number (this does not change ever), ending in the rank. Ranks are E(entry) --> A(advanced)
We may communicate your virtual Airline of your certification once this is achieved :D
Levels E and D => Commercial pilot License (CPL)
Levels C, B, and A => Airline Transport Pilots (ATP), C=> 2nd officers, B=> 1st officers, A=> Captains

So eventually, I will be able to fly as
UAL424A
Representing a vATO captain flying a route that is performed by United :)


All this is now updated. See reply thread below!!

Licenses

vATO Licenses are available for the community to see at:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing

Pilot Roster
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby Jabberwocky » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:16 pm

I am so confused now ...
So, if I fly regularly Phoenix to Cairo or Hurghada which is a route no airline flies direct and I do it in a plane too big for the private license, what would I become and how ... and what if I fly occasionally another route am I then someone else of a sudden ... and humm, what happens to my JWOCKY callsign?
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby Rick Ace » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:36 pm

Jabberwocky wrote in Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:16 pm:I am so confused now ...
So, if I fly regularly Phoenix to Cairo or Hurghada which is a route no airline flies direct and I do it in a plane too big for the private license, what would I become and how ... and what if I fly occasionally another route am I then someone else of a sudden ... and humm, what happens to my JWOCKY callsign?

You can always fly on your own with the JWOCKY callsign. :D

But to log hours for vATO, there are certain rules that must be followed. :)
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby Jabberwocky » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:13 pm

I am of German origin, we don't discuss orders, we follow them ... usually ...
Nevertheless, nothing will happen before the current our of flightgear work is done. And before I finally can bring this headset up and running!
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:34 pm

@JWOCKY

Sounds good :D
Let us know when you feel you ready to embark in the Academy :D
Then an instructor, a callsign, and a vATO Student Pilot License (SLP) will be assigned.

;)
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby omega95 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:39 am

plus their 3 digit number (this does not change ever)


But we have a lot of pilots with 4 digit numbers. :o

And also, if our pilots aren't using our FG-integrated ACARS system, their flights can only be verified over the MPTracker, and we look for their callsigns without any letter suffix. :| Is there any way we can get around that?
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby Rick Ace » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:57 pm

omega95 wrote in Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:39 am:But we have a lot of pilots with 4 digit numbers. :o

And also, if our pilots aren't using our FG-integrated ACARS system, their flights can only be verified over the MPTracker, and we look for their callsigns without any letter suffix. :| Is there any way we can get around that?

This would be an issue if you wanted all your pilots to always fly under the vATO. Otherwise, pilots will be able to log hours separately. :D

The ultimate goal of vATO is to educate virtual pilots of the real aviation world. There are many guidelines and practices that are often overlooked by virtual pilots. The callsigns help the vATO community identify users and assist/train them on the multiplayer network. It's not just a callsign. It's a notice to other vATO pilots who are willing to instruct or are in need of instructions themselves.
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:01 pm

omega95 wrote in Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:39 am: :| Is there any way we can get around that?



HI omega
Yes. There is a way around that
If we have a certified pilot that also flies around a VA, vATO may accept their virtual airline callsign as a valid alternative, to their vATO signs.
That way they could double score hours for vATO and the VA of their choice.

There are a few important.... detractors, thou
1. A vATO pilot cannot reach a commercial or Airline transport License (CPL or ATP) without having successfully completed the Instrument Rated Pilot License. So... Airline pilots will need to wait before getting this benefit
2. Ego is a very important part of humans. Self identification and stuff like that. A very experience pilot, call example, Naru. How willing will he be to go ahead and demostrate on a practical flight how good he is to complete a NDB only flight (with NDB approach chart) in a Seneca II? [at the same time not being able to score for his VA?!
3. Related to point 2, others that "think" they are soo high, may become even more frustated when they realize they dont even know where they are if they comply with Internal FG Map ban. (This definitely does not happen to Naru ;) )

An important part of all this idea is to generate a symbiotic need between good vATO ATCs and good vATO pilots with an increased activity. This will only benefit everyone involved.
vATO ATCs will need to log hours to level up. And also they will need to serve a given minima number of vATO pilots as well (Depending on level). vATO ATCs are in need of trained vATO pilots.
vATO pilots will need to log pilot hours, some of which will need to occur under vATO ATC service. So vATO pilots also need to visit the ATCs, for everyone to progress. This is all to improve the "communicate" area in the ANC moto, besides stimulating realism.
This is also, to shift the focus of vATO from "EVENT based organization", to personal growth and learning, and experience gaining of our members.


IHCOL

PS: As Rick said thou, if the pilot, in spite of the certification does not follow proper flying practices, the hours may not accrue for vATO. [yet all the training will tell them what it is expected]
Rick also has a second good point. We don't necessarily expect that MIA becomes a fully vATO certified airline. (or any airline as a matter of fact). Nonetheless, due to the nature of the academy program, of self instruction being monitored/recommended by another more advance pilot, This is definitely something that is, at the very least, achievable. Point taken, question remain on whether any airline board will consider it necessary.
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby omega95 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:04 pm

It's not just a callsign. It's a notice to other vATO pilots who are willing to instruct or are in need of instructions themselves.


Very good point - but have you considered other methods of identification? Like checking if an MP pilot is registered at vATO and then having FG/OpenRadar pull data from the vATO database about their level?

Hello IHCOL,

If we have a certified pilot that also flies around a VA, vATO may accept their virtual airline callsign as a valid alternative


I'm sorry, I didn't really understand that - did you mean if a pilot completes the certification or something else? :|

How willing will he be to go ahead and demostrate on a practical flight how good he is to complete a NDB only flight (with NDB approach chart) in a Seneca II? [at the same time not being able to score for his VA?!


Aha, if it was about 2 years ago - I'd be more than willing to as I did with VSA's training program. But unfortunately, I barely have any time for FlightGear that's not related to Flight Control System Analysis for my NASA AOC Challenge team. :( I had the last week and I have most of the next week but after that, I'm going back to work. :shock:

I did not intend any of the questions for myself - due to time constraints, I will not be enrolled in any of the programs. I am getting a real life Private License next semester anyway. My questions were meant for the many other merlion pilots who wish to learn and enjoy a controlled environment. We had a very good program run by VSA an year ago but the VSA staff have been inactive for a while (I think) so I was just looking for another training system for our interested pilots.

Just for clarification, I was wondering what kind of qualifications/training the vATO trainers/instructors have to be able to teach and certify student pilots? :?: I trusted VSA's program because all of VSA's instructors were trained by a real life Certified Flight Instructor. (Michael White)

may become even more frustated when they realize they dont even know where they are if they comply with Internal FG Map ban


Very true, I had to help a pilot make a safe landing after his AP malfunctioned earlier today - pilots do need training on non-GPS IFR navigation especially considering a lot of the younger pilots at merlion (and FG, I suppose?) intend of becoming pilots in the real world.

If the true intention of vATO's restructuring is to offer training to interested pilots, I was wondering why a simple change in callsign is a big deal. Also, the pilots don't need to log vATO hours or receive any certification, it's simply about learning at this point.

If that is not possible, I still truly enjoyed vATO's controlled events - and I was hoping they would still be open (if you still conduct them) to pilots who're not registered at vATO.

Cheers,
Naru :)
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:35 pm

Consider looking at our general plan
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/ ... sp=sharing
And let me know any suggestion (also in addition to those of not using specific callsigns or hour loggin', that you may have)
Thanks a lot :D

@MIA0001
Nice comments Naru :D
Let me try to address them here.

1. We had not considered other identifications for pilots to log hours for vATO while on training. Not many good reasons but: 1) on ATC service it is more realistic to have GA and Airline type of callsigns than other types. 2) Having a callsign that reflect your level works in a way like stars in a shoulder badge. Anyone that ones vATO scheme will tell what level the pilot is. It comes handy for promoting interest in progress, and for ATCs to know what level to expect from the pilot. At lower levels (all first academy), until CPL, unless a very particular division of a VA, that allows GA routes and crafts, the pilot is basically limited to perform and demostrate flying skills (pertinent to the level). At the secondary level (CPL and ATPs) could be simultaneously logging hours with both vATO and their Airline. This is done by honoring the VA callsign within vATO.


2. A pilot will have several certifications depending on what "missions" had been completed succesfuly. SPL (student Pilot license, levels E1, D1, C1), PPL (private Pilot License, level B1), and IRL (Instrument Rated License, certified GA pilot, Level A1). Then IRLs can enter if they wish the second degree academy with Commercial Pilot License (CPL, levels E2, D2) and Airline Transport Pilot (ATP, levels C2, B2, and A2).

The callsign reveals where a pilot is at this rank at all times. Ex. I will be HKv-424, so my callsign will progress as follow: HKE-424, HKD-424, HKC-424, HKB-424, HKA-424, and then using ICAOs I could be (depending on the airline route I am following) UAL424E, AAL424D, ASA424C, DLH424B, BAW424A (etc). If I were, lets say, be MIA9382, then I could fly MIA9382 while CPL or ATP, to log for vATO and MIA simultaneously.

3. I understand that you, or anyone else may or not choose to undergo (a certification, or just another certification). Free will.
(In your case, our lost -- see 5)

4. Yes, I knew about MIA's VSA. But I am not a MIA pilot, and I do not know whether MIA trains non-MIA FG members. I respect all the good work MIA does.

5. vATO does not offer training for other purposes than flight simulation. We do not have "qualified" instructors. As a matter of fact, I plan for us to work kind of differently. vATO pilots are simultaneously vATO instructors. HOW? well... this is my idea:
An instructor will help/guide/comment on/validate the progress of a trainee. The program is outlayed. It basically consist on practical flights with determined instructions. (ex. a VFR pattern, or VFR crosscountry, or IFR route with NDBs and VORs with a VOR_DME approach, whatever is pertinent to the level). A few material (from online sources) will be pointed for self review. and the instructor may answer questions, and expect the trainee to complete the practical flight on his/her own time. Base on the flight track the performance is evaluated, and suggestions indicated. The trainee is contacted to the trainer for possible questions and alike.
To be able to get certifications (like IFR, as an example, also know as level A), the pilot may need to, in addition to exercises, also train a number of vATO pilots, thru the same program, to a given level (like C or B (PPL) )
So our in training pilots will become instructors for the lower levels, and so on.

No one is expected to have a real life hands-off experience.
But who knows, maybe some day a reallife pilot like Naru or M. White, accept to go thru the process, and can give real valuable lessons to the FG community ;)

6. vATO hours loggin' is part of our new system of milestone achieving. Example, a PPL may need to accrue 150 valid vATO hours to qualify for IRL.
I want to stimulate activity.

7. Our ATCs will be trained to offer service to all FG community alike. You, your airline, other airlines, and other casual pilots will be able to come by to their time slotted. nce again, we are switching the focus from "events" to the "members".

8. At this point is just a big experiment that I had been planning for long. I wish it works.

Best, your friend,
IHCOL
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby omega95 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:49 pm

Just finished going through the presentation - it seems to be very interesting and I really hope it works out, but it might be a pretty big challenge considering the small number of pilots interested in completing a training course. It says you cannot continue to CPL without training 3 pilots to Bravo Level, but what if there aren't more pilots registered at the time who haven't already completed their training to Bravo Level? :shock:

I do not know whether MIA trains non-MIA FG members


At the moment, MIA doesn't train anyone - not even MIA pilots. We're going to have type-rating exams and reference material soon but that's about it. That's why I was looking for training from vATO.

this is my idea:


That's a very interested idea - learn what each other know instead of from a main instructor. Ofcourse, there's a lot of possibilities for being taught something wrong but I'd love to see how this works out.

I've very sorry that I can't help much - I'm simply way too busy. :(

I will definitely encourage interested merlion pilots to join this program but to be able to file pireps (even training/charter GA), we need to validate their flights. Can we simply trust vATO reports (we'll need them send via an http request to our website) to award hours to pilots?

Cheers,
Naru :)
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby Rick Ace » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:54 pm

omega95 wrote in Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:49 pm:I will definitely encourage interested merlion pilots to join this program but to be able to file pireps (even training/charter GA), we need to validate their flights. Can we simply trust vATO reports (we'll need them send via an http request to our website) to award hours to pilots?

If I understand the program correctly, pilots will have to file separately for vATO and the Virtual Airline in question, but they can use the same flight log for both sites.
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Re: vATO's restructuring

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:55 pm

@MIA0001 & Rick..
Yes, that is what I think too. A pilot will log the flight for both a VA and vATO if the flight does qualify in requirements for both

@MIA0001
I also hope it works out. It is a practical approach to training. Kind of.
About number of pilots.... that is #1 limitation to be able to make this. I could get reduced requirements if only a handful of people is really interested in learning a bit more of how to flight in the simulator, while making it more challenging but also more rewarding and growing.
I see a lot of new people of KSFO that will greatly benefit from something like this. But question to be ask is: How many are made of what it takes to? ... besides passing on the experience is a way for payback the efforts others did on teaching oneself.

I will be happy to get MIA newer pilots to train on vATO. I am doing my best to not make of vATO just another VA. Instead an academy wherepilots pilots and ATCs can learn and pass on important experiences in a friendly, casual, but standardized manner; ie. exercises may be the same for training purposes, so the instructors are not "creating plans", but looking at how an student performed the same plan he already completed. Experience will give him an idea of the though points in the route.

Errors could be passed on, it is true. But I will try that our community have an academic approach. Self-revising material. Looking for resources. Discussing openly, and being good listener in addition to good talker. But it is true, that experienced RL pilots will be a great benefit to the program as a whole ....


I am happy to get some MIA pilots on the training site of vATO and I look forward to re-establish the mutually benefit interactions we use to have in the H5 days.
I guess the program success will depend, at the end, on the work's ethic of the people that end up getting involved. (like getting their flights, and really attempting to follow the self-imposed rules, such as leaving the FG internal map in the terminal area, before departure ;P )
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