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The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Discussion about creating 2d and 3d cockpits.

Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby El Flauta » Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:45 pm

The two works are really great. If someone add some textures to the rest of the cockpit interior, it will be really awesometastic :wink:
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby horacio » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:30 pm

HHS wrote:Yep, of course and I was always looking for a way to add this to my aircraft, but my graphical knowledge is weak about that.


I think is actually impossible. All rendering tools for 3D modeler softwares, like V-ray, Indigo, Pov-ray, and many others uses a lot of complex algorithms to simulate light reflections, difussion, and many other behavior of light according to the type of texture which receive it, so you must define each texture one by one indicating what kind of texture is (glass, wood, metal, etc.), and if it is rough or smooth and a lot of other parameters, so the softwares finally render a image with all this info.... excessive work which is impossible to do to FG... at least, at the moment.

isix wrote:Horacio, fantastic your work! You have complete technic domain, great! Felicitaciones!


Thanks a lot, isix. Actually, is much more good and keen sense of observation, than technic tools. You cannot do nothing even with the best software, if you are not a good observer. The details makes reality. And if you can deceive the eye, then the simulation is well done.

El Flauta wrote:The two works are really great. If someone add some textures to the rest of the cockpit interior, it will be really awesometastic :wink:


Indeed I'm on it now. I've developed a temporary image for the interior, while take better pictures of chassis in some Cessna, because all previous pictures are not good enough to use them as textures.

Here a picture. The floor appears white because it's still without texture:

Image
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby HHS » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:41 pm

horacio wrote:I think is actually impossible. All rendering tools for 3D modeler softwares, like V-ray, Indigo, Pov-ray, and many others uses a lot of complex algorithms to simulate light reflections, difussion, and many other behavior of light according to the type of texture which receive it, so you must define each texture one by one indicating what kind of texture is (glass, wood, metal, etc.), and if it is rough or smooth and a lot of other parameters, so the softwares finally render a image with all this info.... excessive work which is impossible to do to FG... at least, at the moment.


That wasn't what I meant. I wanted to know how you make this reflections, especially when the windows are curved.
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby horacio » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:32 pm

HHS wrote:That wasn't what I meant. I wanted to know how you make this reflections, especially when the windows are curved.


Ah, hahahaha, sorry.

If the glass of instrument is curved, then I follow the steps showed in this pictures with the process:

1.- To the original image of instrument I apply a gradient horizontal effect from light to shadow, from top to bottom (at the top there are always more light):

Image

2.- I put over the main image of the instrument a layer with an a real image of the cockpit used like viewed from the panel to back side, and apply to it a transparency of 40 or 50%. If the instrument is curved, I apply eye fish effect to the cockpit image layer (like to simulate how the reflection would look on the glass):

Image

3.- Almost all the time I apply a curved shadow on the top of the instrument, more or less, depending if I simulate the shadow of a socket of instrument, or the normal shadow of curved glass:

Image

4.- And finally I apply some light brights, one greater at one side bottom, and a little circle near the center. I've put a black background to this image to may notice them:

Image

5.- This is the final result. This was my first design for the ASI to the BO, before to know the glasses were flat:

Image

This was the answer you were looking for? I hope were useful.

PD: Ah, I usually apply a final parallel sorrounding shadow to the main image. It helps to better see it positioned over the needed panel and not look so fake.
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby HHS » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:44 pm

Thanks, that was it! :D
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby Johan G » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:51 pm

Thank you very much for that well illustrated but short tutorial, horacio! Maybe something for the wiki. :wink:

The improvements look very nice! :shock: Could I perhaps suggest some papers and a map be stuck between the glare shield and the canopy, like in the pictures in this thread. :roll:
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby isix » Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:59 pm

Woh! Very good this procedure. It´s more simple, economic and better effect than glass shader. Too less cpu load. Great! I´ll aplly it in my aircrafts
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby horacio » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:30 am

Well it seems we are starting to have our C172 as it should... Today I went to my local airport and took good pictures from a beatiful model, so now it begin to looks more real:

Image

I supose this next weekend will be entirely finished and with a link to download it.
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby rafa23189 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:10 pm

horacio, have you ever used blender? I dont have a lot of experience but look at this videos, might help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2C8q6cDTBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Ar7FAPJQI

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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby horacio » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:57 pm

rafa23189 wrote:horacio, have you ever used blender? I dont have a lot of experience but look at this videos, might help


No, I never used it. I use Sketchup and AC3D, but I thank the videos you posted. Anyway, those effects are only possible to apply inside the native software (in this case, Blender), and are not exportable options to the .AC format used by FG. That's why we need to use effects already applied in an image, so that you see it when use the image as texture (all this in parallel to some shaders effects that FG could apply to some surface).

_____________________

In our spanish forum I did an excercise that transcribe now here.

I've done two shots, same airport, same runway, same point of view and same day light, one with the actual state of development of my C172 P, and the default C172 SP coming with FSX, so to do a good comparison excericise for positive and negative observations:

C172 P FlightGear
Image

C172SP, FSX
Image

Points to be consider, trying to be objective, and not sounding to justificafions:

1.- Are different model variants (that's obvious).
2.- The models of FS are developed by professional 3D modelers and designers teams.
3.- The level of details in photo-textures used in FS shows a kind of work piece by piece with model pre-prepared (semi dismantled) because there are no pieces that overlay another in each square meter of image.
4.- It's notice that textures used in FS have been taken from real model equivalent to 3D model over will be used (matching of parts).

Comments:

Negatives:

- 3D Model FS (independent of textures) contains in itself a high level of detail, which is much more effective than a flat texture applied where there is no relief. However, the performance of the PC is not lower by the amount of detail 3D should raise in every FPS. I guess that will be a great sum of things: using of video card from the programming done by the simulator, weight and use of 3D format used by FS in their models, etc.

- In the picture is not noticed, but the simulator does not do any resampling or a decrease in image quality for the distance (as our LOD-RANGE), which makes textures, either more or less zoom, in panel and the cabin never lose quality, and each needle and values in instruments are read perfectly.

Positives for FG:

- Although the ambient light in FG I do not like (too much whitish), the effect produced over the models is good. At noon there is a great contrast of light/shadows by the light of sun almost vertical, an effect not seen in FS, where the light is always similar during the day.

- Although my development still has many shortcomings, especially in the mapping work (although there are parts that can not do more, because not match the proportions of the actual model of photos with the existing 3D model) I think the final result puts FG in a much more equal ground to compete with FS.

- If the FS model has been developed by a team of professionals, dedicated daily while several months to make the best possible model for a simulator, and also receiving a good salary for that, so the more we can do we as a community, if work together on the same side.

__________________________________

I think it's time to leave behind the phrase: "FS is physically wrong with flight, but it has better graphics." Or not?

I welcome your comments and observations of comparison, and they will be very useful to me.
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby HHS » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:03 pm

Interesting comparement!

The 3d-work of the panel was done by me, just using a lot of pictures from the net as reference. Unfortunately I found a manual with image of this panel very much later....I didn't have access to the real aircraft, so a lot was just guessing. I planned to go on, but after I found out that touching a Default Aircraft in FGFS is a bad thing, I stopped and concentrated on my own work.

Professionel Studios creating 3d-models for Sims like MSFS mostly have access to the real aircraft, measure all things and make thousand of photos, using as reference in modelling and textures.
They also have a team of developers, and mostly a 8hour day to make this.

It should be no problem to compete with a SP-model of the c172 as we can see here- the panel textures we have already and the different gauges as well.
What we don't have is a high detailled and good 3d-model.

Some comments from me:

3D Model FS (independent of textures) contains in itself a high level of detail, which is much more effective than a flat texture applied where there is no relief. However, the performance of the PC is not lower by the amount of detail 3D should raise in every FPS. I guess that will be a great sum of things: using of video card from the programming done by the simulator, weight and use of 3D format used by FS in their models, etc.

There is the advantage of FlightGear: in SinglePlayer we can have Millions of vertices on a model- and no noticeable impact on fps! Even with older GPU's it isn't a problem. Problems are more the textures itself.
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby statto » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:33 pm

horacio wrote:I think it's time to leave behind the phrase: "FS is physically wrong with flight, but it has better graphics." Or not?


FS still has better graphics for a lot of aspects of the simulation, but we're gaining in a lot of small places =)
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby isix » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:37 am

HHS, I´m curious, can you talk more about this affirmation, please :

There is the advantage of FlightGear: in SinglePlayer we can have Millions of vertices on a model- and no noticeable impact on fps! Even with older GPU's it isn't a problem. Problems are more the textures itself.


Why it happens in FG?
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby MdMax » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:38 am

:shock: Horacio, your textures are really looking awesome ! 8)
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Re: The always great C172p cockpit improvement!!

Postby horacio » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:46 pm

isix wrote:HHS, I´m curious, can you talk more about this affirmation, please :

HHS wrote:There is the advantage of FlightGear: in SinglePlayer we can have Millions of vertices on a model- and no noticeable impact on fps! Even with older GPU's it isn't a problem. Problems are more the textures itself.


Me too are interested in to understand better this sentence.

MdMax wrote::shock: Horacio, your textures are really looking awesome ! 8)


Thanks a lot. Btw, I was thinking in to finish better the C172 before to offer a release, but I'm seeing will be impossible to do a complete work until after christmas, and perhaps after new year, so I will package it and offer the first downloadable link.
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