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World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:00Z|  Topic is solved

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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby legoboyvdlp » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:40 am

FlyingHigh wrote in Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:05 am:p.s. How difficult can it be, really? You run a script to poll and compare all AI or other aircraft installed on the user's system to the keywords related to whatever aircraft is presented in the user's MP environment. The script makes an intelligent guess, and then loads a model, some model, any model other than the "blue glider" . I'm not even a programmer but even I can understand conceptually how to fix this disgrace. And NO, it's not "more complicated than that". It's exactly that simple.


As a matter of fact that's what fallback models are for - all aircraft in FGADDON have this now, but aircraft in external hangars generally do not as it needs, naturally, to be manually specified.

I'll add the fallback aircraft to the IDG aircraft shortly if I remember and that will mean you will never see the blue yellow glider with them again . . :)



I've downloaded the aircraft into my computer, and according to Flightgear, from this point forward, in Multiplayer, I should see the models as models and not as "the blue glider" , because I downloaded and installed those aircraft models.


How -- precisely -- are you getting these aircraft and where are they being installed to?
Did you tell FlightGear where they are by adding the root folder they are in to the add-ons tab of the launcher?
I can show you how I installed mine if you like.. ?
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby V12 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:24 am

OK gentlemans, my patience with this discuss about MP troubles here in WCA thread gone. Please continue at viewtopic.php?p=345765#p345765
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby legoboyvdlp » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:31 pm

That's exactly what the fallback models do :)
It defines what should be used if it can't find the mp model.
Nearly all the fgaddon aircraft have this already but most custom aircraft from other hangars don't.
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby Octal450 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:46 pm

I think that is a terrible idea, not all similarly named models are compatible. Take the MD-11 for example. If you take my "MD-11-GE" and try to display the "MD-11" aircraft from FGAddon instead, you will see a plane halfway underground, on fire, and with Wings bent all the way vertical (wrong wingflex mp prop, etc). Terrible user experience. The way we do it now encourages users to go find the aircraft, should they wish to see it. And if such planes are in FGAddon, (which mine eventually will be when I feel they are ready), it will be easy.

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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby Octal450 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:48 pm

I should also point out that there are no standards in FGAddon except license requirement... there are some planes there that do not even have any sort of cockpit or even 2D panel, and I believe there was 1 or 2 that crash FG when loaded due to mistakes in formatting an XML file.

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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby legoboyvdlp » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:53 pm

it0uchpods wrote in Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:46 pm:I think that is a terrible idea, not all similarly named models are compatible.



Well, it's just as well that Richard didn't implement what is indeed a terrible idea ;)
See: http://wiki.flightgear.org/MP_Fallback_models
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby V12 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:57 pm

FlyingHigh :
I have fundamental ask :
How color had planes displayed as gliders in the Pilot list ? White / yellow, or orange ?
- If white / yellow, Your FG found that models, but Your computer was short on resources, 2GB RAM is too little for multiplayer session with resource hungry MD11, A320 or B707. FGADDON Concorde is "lightweight", You could see that model with limited resources.
- If orange, Your FG really not found that models

Again, please continue here :
viewtopic.php?p=345853#p345853
Last edited by V12 on Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby Octal450 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:03 pm

@legoboyvdlp
that is a fallback model, completely different concept

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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:42 pm

FlyingHigh wrote in Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:42 pm:You know, I'm going to try this again next event. I'm going to install each aircraft from every hangar I can find

as noted several times before, this is not a good idea... install only those that are needed for your flight... on another flight, you might need a different craft that you already have but this one from a different hanger... this may be necessary because different people have their own ways of doing things... they may change the properties sent over MP or they may change the control keys and even the flight properties or FDM... in some cases, the 3D model has been changed and the point of origin (0,0,0) may not be the same... in that case, you might see craft sunk below the terrain or even standing on their nose if the x,y,z coordinates have been flipped around... some craft put 0,0,0 on the nose of the craft... others put it at the center of gravity... some flip x and y... it all depends on the modeler and how they created the 3D models of the craft...

side note: this thing with the properties sent over MP is one of the reasons why you might see a craft flying with its engines on fire, or maybe no nose cone, or even landing with its undercarriage raised... this is why you should have the same craft being used and not all of them that you can find in a "spray and pray" install method... especially when it comes to MP because while you know which craft you are flying, FG has to select one that matches the name and that one may not be the same one being flown by someone else out there in MP...

we have seen at least those three problems over MP, too... i named them specifically because of that... in the nose cone case, the craft has three different nose cones depending on the model being flown... the properties being sent over MP did not select the proper nose cone... this problem had been there for a while but it really came to light when some of the MP code was rewritten... the solution was to fix the craft to use the opposite logic for the nose cone... the one with the engines on fire was similar but in that case, the properties had to be reworked so they were actually being transmitted instead of being chopped off because the data packet was too large...

FlyingHigh wrote in Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:42 pm:and also install each aircraft into my "MyAircraft" folder per all the advice of you, Josh and Wlbragg and I'm sorry if I forgot anyone who also made suggestions.

this is fine but for those craft in FGAddon, you don't need to do anything other than to click the [install] button in the launcher and wait for the craft to be downloaded and installed where the launcher places it... there's no need to move it or rename it... if a craft installed in this manner doesn't work properly, it should be reported so that others can take a look at it and figure out what is wrong... in some cases, it could be a damaged archive... in other, it may be an unsupported archive... in any case, other eyes will generally be able to suss out the problem and trigger a fix... that fix could be the addition of code to support an unsupported archive format or it could be that the hanger's archives get updated with new revisions of the craft in it... it all depends...

FlyingHigh wrote in Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:42 pm:The "simply install the aircraft and then you will be able to see its model in MP" idea is simply wrong. It doesn't work like that, clearly there is much more going on under the hood than that kind of advice implies.

the key here is the word "install" and what that implies... learning how craft need to be installed is a step that should not be overlooked... in most cases, it is as simple as downloading the craft from somewhere, unarchiving it, and placing it in a certain directory that FG has been pointed to... if one downloads a snapshot from a git repository, they may need to remove "-master" from the craft's directory name... that is only if they have downloaded the snapshot of the "master" branch, though... if they download the snapshot from the "Issue-123" branch, they would have to remove "-Issue-123" from the directory name the craft is in... other repositories may or may not append similar branch names to the craft's directory, though... it depends on the repo and maybe even the maintainer's repo configuration settings...

remember, there're 100+ cats here and they are not so easily herded :mrgreen:
Last edited by wkitty42 on Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:54 pm

legoboyvdlp wrote in Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:53 pm:Well, it's just as well that Richard didn't implement what is indeed a terrible idea ;)
See: http://wiki.flightgear.org/MP_Fallback_models

i think he was referring to the message above your's about using some "scanning script" to select a craft with a close name and displaying that over MP... the lack of using proper trimmed quotes can lead to this type of misunderstanding ;)
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby legoboyvdlp » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:45 pm

The point is as I have been trying to explain, they already fixed this issue! Now it is up to aircraft developers to add fallback models - I will be doing this for the IDG aircraft tomorrow morning so you will never see the glider again using them
A great majority of the fgaddon aircraft already have it.


@wkitty ok - thanks :)
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby V12 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:07 pm

FlyingHigh :
Try to add next 2 GB of RAM to Your machine and test MP visibility. There is big probability that problem is not in FG, but in Your machine.
Some months ago I tested FG on LUbuntu, what is extra light linux environment with only 2 GB RAM. For reasonable flight experiences with IDG A320 or B777 I used bare LOD 30 km and visibility limit only 16 km, AI traffic off, all shaders to minimum and machine still wildly swapped to the disk almost all mouse movement. When I added 2 GB, it was incredible step forward.
And Windows is more resource hungry than LUbuntu 14.04 with basic memory consumption 250 MB...
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby Octal450 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:54 pm

So you think it's ok, to see a burning aircraft, with vertical wings sunked below ground? I do not. Every aircraft is different, and should be treated as such. Fallback models are another thing that I am ok with.

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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby legoboyvdlp » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:13 pm

He is referring to this:

it0uchpods wrote in Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:46 pm:I think that is a terrible idea, not all similarly named models are compatible. Take the MD-11 for example. If you take my "MD-11-GE" and try to display the "MD-11" aircraft from FGAddon instead, you will see a plane halfway underground, on fire, and with Wings bent all the way vertical (wrong wingflex mp prop, etc). Terrible user experience. The way we do it now encourages users to go find the aircraft, should they wish to see it. And if such planes are in FGAddon, (which mine eventually will be when I feel they are ready), it will be easy.

Kind Regards,
Josh



As for your question:
Or, put another way, I could ask you "for whom did they fix it?"


It's fixed for every aircraft that defines the fallback models.
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Re: World's Challenging Approaches - 12 |SEQU|06-04-2019|16:

Postby Octal450 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:10 pm

Burning aircraft: Aircraft appears to be on fire
Wings vertical and aircraft sunken below ground: Wings appear bent up vertically from the fuselage, and aircraft looks like it is below ground

That is what happens when if you can try to load the IDG-MD-11X for the old MD-11 over MP. Incompatible MP props cause such things. (And this will NEVER be standardized, that would be a big limitation in realism). Same issue would occur with any 2 incompatible models.

Why don't you just download and install the planes properly and it will is fine. (And don't say, I am not wasting my time blah blah blah etc, I don't care about that. If you don't try, you won't get fixed)

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