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The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby HJ1AN » Wed May 14, 2014 12:12 am

by elgaton
If the pilot has not filed a flight plan, I just ask him for his destination/cruise altitude and fill them in. (That takes about 20 seconds and does not usually add much time, but reduces the workload for other controllers, in my opinion; it would be nice to test it during the practice session).


I have to ask, how do you file a flight plan? is that part of FG, or you do that as part of communication with ATC
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby Lydiot » Wed May 14, 2014 1:37 am

HJ1AN wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 12:12 am:
by elgaton
If the pilot has not filed a flight plan, I just ask him for his destination/cruise altitude and fill them in. (That takes about 20 seconds and does not usually add much time, but reduces the workload for other controllers, in my opinion; it would be nice to test it during the practice session).


I have to ask, how do you file a flight plan? is that part of FG, or you do that as part of communication with ATC


I think you can do that [url=http://flightgear-atc.alwaysdata.net/V4/index.php5]here[/ulr]. Of course apart from curiosity the biggest usefulness of flightplans are for ATCs. So unless they can automatically import the data they'll have to be told about it anyway.
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed May 14, 2014 1:52 am

Hi HJ1AN.
Thanks for the question. It really deserves to be a Wiki topic, and I may undertake the task (eventually, when I am able), but others are welcome to jump in, if they want to.

I will answer your questions here, from back to cover.

HJ1AN wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 12:12 am: you do that as part of communication with ATC(?)


Basically.
If you as a pilot file a flight plan, anyone interested will know what you are doing. i) Where you coming from, ii) Where you going to, iii)Times of your flight, iv) details of your route, v) details of your plane, vi)Other potentially interesting details.
By filing a Flight plan, you skip needing to tell every ATC individually what you are doing. Cause they all can read :)
Now they will concentrate in offer you the service the best they can, trying to guide you to succesfully complete the plan.

So, again, you file a flight plan, basically to communicate your intentions to the ATC, with greater detail that you could possibly do, in the shortest format you can get to transmit that much information.

But while communicating, you are also communicating to anyone involved. Like other pilots could see what you trying to accomplish. That will help if they want to cross paths. Or follow your flying closely, or even see if they could go along the way. Thus you communicate to ATCs, your first purpose. But you gain the advantage of a wider outreach.

HJ1AN wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 12:12 am: is that part of FG?


Well. No. It is not.
flightgear don't offer Flight plan FILING out of the box.
Nonetheless, the flightgear community has efforted in filing those gaps for a multiplayer experience. That is where Lenny's Flight plan and ATC service coverage comes in.

Parenthesis: The Route Manager in the menu within Flightgear allow you to program a Flight plan in a way that will assist your flying to comply with it. But that is not FILING, per se.

HJ1AN wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 12:12 am:How do you file a flight plan?


Well. First of all you need a plan, right? And this question could be expanded to, How do I get a plan?

Let me walk you through an example:

http://flightgear-atc.alwaysdata.net/V4 ... ToShow=180

You want to fly a plane for this event. So first lets choose the A -> B. Origin and Destination. You made your decision to fly Madrid to Barcelona. You want to arrive to Barcelona during ATC coverage. Checking Lenny's page you see currently ATC plans to cover Barcelona (LEBL) on Sat and Sun at 19:00 to 23:00, and there is not plan YET planned ATC service for Madrid. (In the example) you decided to arrive to Barcelona at 2000 UTC. So Origin (A) is Madrid (LEMD), Destination is Barcelona (LEBL).

There are many ways to go about choosing the flight plan itself. Lets make an example with Simroutes.com: http://www.simroutes.com/fb2/ShowPlans.aspx
Filing that form for Departing LEMD, Arriving LEBL, gives me 1 route: http://www.simroutes.com/fb2/Details.aspx?PlanID=18681
You can change aircraft type for a new estimated cruising speed and thus new estimated time calculations.

Image

With that in hand you know your points (in column ident): LEMD PINAR SEGRE BRITO PISUS PONEN UW800 CASPE LEBL, also your Estimated time as 20 minutes. Give or take 15 minutes for all procedures, and slow parts of route (climb and descend), we will be arriving madrid 35 minutes after departure.
So we have most of it figure out.
Madrid at (2000UT-35min): 19:25UTC
Barcelona at 20:00 UTC
Plane (of choice): B767
Speed (KTAS: also in the table): 472
and route: you have the points there.

Armed with the information of what we WANT to do, we just need to let everyone else involved know. Back to Lenny's.

You can begin by clicking in my callsign, or clicking the little airplane of the ATC session you want to visit (for arriving or departing, depending which you chose)
Image
Image [this little plane does not do the self fill yet, so double check your work)

File in the info as it is being asked.

The minimum you'll need to know:
1) Callsing => HJ888
2) FROM TO => LEMD LEBL
3) DATE : 11/01/2014
4) TIME: 19:25 20:00
(dont click enter, it will file for you without checking :S)

Image

For additional info you can expand to give more info

FL = Choose a flight level. ie FL290
Aircraft Type = B767
Pilot Name = You (voluntary info) = H1JAN
Flight number=> the number part of your callsign (888)
Waypoints =>LEMD PINAR SEGRE BRITO PISUS PONEN UW800 CASPE LEBL
Comments => up to you => VIVA LA FIESTA FG!! :D

And then either enter of Flight plan is all needed.

Image
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby METAL » Wed May 14, 2014 4:36 am

IAHM-COL, thanks for the detailed info on how to file a flightplan! Personally, I think I'm just going to wing it. Pun intended. :D

Oh, and forgive the potentially dumb question: should I still make a separate topic in the forum for ATC coordination? It seems to me that we've decided to do everything through Lenny's website and possible a Wiki page. If I'm wrong let me know and I'll make one (or one of you guys could take the initiative, if desired).
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby HJ1AN » Wed May 14, 2014 5:11 am

Thanks so much for the info on the flight plan, very thorough and comprehensive. Yes, this would make a great wiki page.
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed May 14, 2014 5:23 am

@METAL
:LOL:
Yes, I imagine you would just wing it :P
I guess filing fightplan is the idea for those pilots hovering around controlled areas.
I am looking to see what mini-event catches my eye, and waiting to see when is LEMD controlled to finalize my FP from South-America.

Respect to separate thread for ATC. That's a topic that has been brought up here many times. Different opinions. How about a poll?

I have made propaganda for Lenny's because I think it has advantages over make lists of ATCs, list of pilots wanting to participate controlled, and stuff like that. It kind of automatically generates all that. People may want to continue trying to coordinate what positions they want to offer as ATC and how, and either this thread or other may do the job. Just your call. Or make a poll and measure the sentiments :P

@H1JAN

Your welcome. Looking forward to see you in the air,

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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby elgaton » Wed May 14, 2014 8:44 am

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 1:52 am:Hi HJ1AN.
Thanks for the question. It really deserves to be a Wiki topic, and I may undertake the task (eventually, when I am able), but others are welcome to jump in, if they want to.

I will answer your questions here, from back to cover.
<snip>

Excellent explanation! Hope you don't mind if I copy it in the wiki?
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed May 14, 2014 2:09 pm

I dont mind ;)
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed May 14, 2014 2:30 pm

METAL wrote in Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:14 am:[b]UPDATE 5/13/14: This is the topic formerly known as "The Ultimate MP Event" Here's the new info in a nutshell so pilots new to the discussion don't have to filter through all our banter. :)

Date: November 1st and 2nd, 2014
Time: All weekend Sat 00:00-Sun 23:59
Location: Iberian Peninsula ... ETC


HI METAL
I am guessing you could add a direct link to the WIKI in here, so people will know in that first glance where we placing the extra info :)

IHCOL

PS: At the moment, the wiki is at an obscure link in the banter's page number 9

http://wiki.flightgear.org/The_Ultimate ... ember_2014

Not that niner is a less obscure digit ;)
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby elgaton » Wed May 14, 2014 2:54 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 2:30 pm:PS: At the moment, the wiki is at an obscure link in the banter's page number 9

http://wiki.flightgear.org/The_Ultimate ... ember_2014


I renamed the page to "The Festival of FlightGear, November 2014" to be consistent with the new title of the thread - please use this URL instead. (The old one will still be valid, though).
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm

Lydiot wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:28 pm:
I think all of this should be discussed in a dedicated "public" thread or discussion on the wiki. I think it'll be easier.


Sure, why not?

Lydiot wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:28 pm:For example: Suppose we have a few people who wish to do approach service at LEBL, it would make sense that we get together and settle on a few STARs / SIDs with IAFs rather than any individual using a different set. Sharing those could cut down the workload since those who don't have time to research charts won't have to, and those that do won't end up with wasting time ending up with the same chart, or with a different chart which would be confusing for some pilots. And speaking of pilots; charts could be shared with pilots so they'd know a few options of what to expect.


http://www.fly-sea.com/charts/LEBL.pdf

Now. I am confused.

If you speaking about setting how we will organize the airspace, I totally agree.
But, why limit SID or STARs, to a few?
A pilot will use the SID or STAR that suits her plan, not the one that suits an ATC plan.

that sounds to me like saying. <<We offer LEBL ATC only to pilots going to Frankfurt, cause we not planning using any SID to the west. Nor we will take time to learn all that>>.

There are different SIDs, with different "exit points" of the airspace, because they are covering any possible exiting direction, with any possible runway configuration. Is it westbound? Is it Eastbound? is the pilot taking rwy 20? etc.
Which SIDs will be in use depends in lots of variable. What pilots attended, and where they are going? What is the weather conditions? It is on day or night time (in Barcelona) so noise abatement rules apply... etc.

Respect to the STAR same thing applies.
There is not point to circle a plane that is coming from the North to make it "force" to use a STAR coming from the South. That is my opinion.
There are already STARs coming from all possible directions.

At the end of the day, the SID or STAR to use depends largely on the plan the pilot is trying to execute, and ATCs will modify those when necessary. Not when it better suits them to just learn a few of those pages in the charts.

(in my opinion, it is easy to open the pdf file on line that "learnt every fix on the chart", too).

But again

It will be cool, if there are several levels of ATC simultaneously to agree on the airspace organization.
Something like agreeing waypoints of entry to Tower airspace from pilots entering N S E or W, in general, where tower will enter them into the "pattern" in place.

Lydiot wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:28 pm:Same with ground. Airport charts, decisions on what to do depending on which runwats are active etc.


Again, Im all lost
Do you mean like closing a RWY because using 3 is too much?

I think runway selection is a TWR decision, and again depends on variables, and can change during the event without giving a warning.

Try to read my manual about multiple ATC coverage.
And the LEBL chart:

You will see, as an example that in LEBL there are standard operations. Day time and Night time oppose, and it switches from Westbound to Eastbound (To avoid, I believe, planes in approach floating above sleepers on the city)

Also, RWY25R and 25L, or 07R and 07L are standardize for which one to use for take off and which one to use for landing.

Why not just using the standard operations?
Note that weather, such as Visibility or Wind may change the actual operations in place.

Respect to taxiing, the chart also tells very explicitly the recomended routes to take. Is it Tango Sierra o Mike? Depends: Is it westbound or Eastbound operations?!
The chart, once again tells us that.
[/quote]

Lydiot wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:28 pm:If it's all talked about "officially" it's easier for more ATCs to jump in.

What'cha think?


I am all for talking about it. But my position is very certainly,
1) do not remove possible SID or STARs becuase it is ATC convenient
2) do not change RWY operations as established in the charts
3) do not change Taxiway directions as established in the charts
4) talk about the airspace coordination: especially what patterns may take place and fixes for tower airspace entry, sounds like a very interesting topic.

Now:
"What'cha think?"


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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby Lydiot » Wed May 14, 2014 5:33 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm:But, why limit SID or STARs, to a few?
A pilot will use the SID or STAR that suits her plan, not the one that suits an ATC plan.


I think it would be wise to limit the amount to a few in case there are many sources. I hate trying to ATC and someone says "I'm using STAR FrankMcNugget DecaFOOOOR" and I have to go search for it online while not finding it... all while the plane is making progress towards the airport. It's an unnecessary waste of time for an amateur player in a casual online game.

If we can limit the amount of sources I think that would be good. But fine, this isn't a dictatorship so if you want to allow anything then that's what goes; and if someone wants to direct airplane traffic rather than have them stick to a seemingly arbitrary STAR they can do that as well. If it's controlled it's controlled.

The issue I'm bringing up is possibly better phrased: What would you do if a plane shows up with a STAR you don't know anything about? Let it go about its business? Ask it for all details? Google like a maniac to try to find it while directing traffic? Or just redirect according to how you're currently routing traffic so you have control? Because if it's the latter it sounds like you're doing it "because it is ATC convenient".

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm:that sounds to me like saying. <<We offer LEBL ATC only to pilots going to Frankfurt, cause we not planning using any SID to the west. Nor we will take time to learn all that>>.


That would mean there was only one SID. Obviously that's not what I wrote. Just read it. I said a few, not just one.

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm:At the end of the day, the SID or STAR to use depends largely on the plan the pilot is trying to execute, and ATCs will modify those when necessary. Not when it better suits them to just learn a few of those pages in the charts.


It's about finding the charts.

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm:
Lydiot wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:28 pm:Same with ground. Airport charts, decisions on what to do depending on which runwats are active etc.


Again, Im all lost
Do you mean like closing a RWY because using 3 is too much?


Where did you get that idea? If winds determine that it's beneficial to exclude a runway from landing, and it needs to be worked out how to route ground traffic to get to and from active runways, and if someone works out a way to deal with that, should we not share that info?

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm:Why not just using the standard operations?


I didn't say we shouldn't, just make sure every ATC that signs up for an airport can find the same information - that standard you're talking about for example - by sharing it once we have it. It would make it easier. I'm not saying to NOT use standard operations just because we don't feel like it. But perhaps there's a value to sharing it and possibly discussing it so it's all clear since there are people with different experience as ATCs.

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm:I am all for talking about it. But my position is very certainly,
1) do not remove possible SID or STARs becuase it is ATC convenient
2) do not change RWY operations as established in the charts
3) do not change Taxiway directions as established in the charts


But which charts? Let's post the available ones then so we all have access.

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm:4) talk about the airspace coordination: especially what patterns may take place and fixes for tower airspace entry, sounds like a very interesting topic.


Shall I start a separate thread or are we doing the wiki for this? Or is it up to METAL to start it?
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed May 14, 2014 5:59 pm

You make good points.

You say, What charts?, then I say What airport?
Rigth, if the event is all over spain, then it is hard to know what every possible ATC is serving. And thus what chart set applies.
If someone says a given procedure (SID or STAR) you don't have a chart for: 1) his chart set is outdated, 2) your chart set is outdated, or 3) you are not prepared enough, and you did not have a chart set.
As a relief to this risk. If a pilot DID filed a flight plan before hand, you should have time to check whether his SID or STAR is applicable and valid.
If a pilot did not, you could issue flight path correction, when you certain he is doing it wrong. (I hardly support this as an example of GOOD SERVICE)

I want to allow what the pilot tries to do, "while permissible", and that goes for me.
If you want to limit yourself to a set of SIDs: four, ten, or twenty, and exclude others, that's OK too. That is your style.
My Moto in vATO is "because realism matter", and not "a casual online game".
But for sure FG is about pluralisms. All points of view are valid at one point and not at another ;)

How to get traffic around ground: That is in the charts. That is my whole point above.
See, my barcelona example
Charts here: http://www.fly-sea.com/charts/LEBL.pdf
How to taxi? See page 3, numerals : 1.3.2.4, 1.3.2.5 1.3.2.6, 1.3.3, 1.4.1, 1.4.2

Other airport? Other chart set will tell.

I didn't say we shouldn't, just make sure every ATC that signs up for an airport can find the same information - that standard you're talking about for example - by sharing it once we have it. It would make it easier. I'm not saying to NOT use standard operations just because we don't feel like it. But perhaps there's a value to sharing it and possibly discussing it so it's all clear since there are people with different experience as ATCs.
---
But which charts? Let's post the available ones then so we all have access.
---


Not a bad suggestion. Do you want to make a wiki page that includes, all possible manned airports in Spain, and its chart set (the most updated possible you can find?). If all possible is too many, consider using the most busy ones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_th ... ic_.5B1.5D

I ask you too, because you are interested in doing this. Definitely I am not, myself. But it is a great idea to have a shared resource like this in the wiki, for sure.

Shall I start a separate thread or are we doing the wiki for this?


It's your call. Myself, I think we should allow METAL to do the official threads. Just to keep this single-headed.
You think we need another thread. I think we need a wiki page.
We can use this thread for all discussions necessary. My mouse is lazy.

I repeat, if you feel like doing a wiki, listing all airports and the "official chart set" that will be some gain forward.
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby IAHM-COL » Wed May 14, 2014 6:08 pm

EDIT:

Finding charts
Google may seem resource number one, but I like to try this first
https://charts.aero/
It is not complete, but when an airport is present, the information obtained is gold

?!?! Europe Back PLEASE!


OK, this may be another resource, but apparently charts there are a bit outdated
http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/naveg ... 596#ancla3
Plus: Spanish only

[not that I care personally ;P ]

And this resource at least lists the proccedures

https://www.ivao.aero/db/ss/airport.asp?Id=LEBL

change Id=ICAO as desired
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Re: The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Postby elgaton » Wed May 14, 2014 6:39 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Wed May 14, 2014 6:08 pm:OK, this may be another resource, but apparently charts there are a bit outdated
http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/naveg ... 596#ancla3
Plus: Spanish only


Not so - I checked on EAS Basic as well, they are in fact the latest ones. Moreover, they are available without registration - so I'm all for them.

As for the ATC thread vs wiki issue: I think it would be better to discuss issues in a thread, then to summarize the agreed procedures in the wiki (a separate section in the event's page would be ideal). (I'm more or less on the same positions as IAHM-COL regarding the procedures - just follow the charts and use standard phraseology, then, if the pilot does not know them very well/has outdated charts/... we could just vector them along the SIDs).
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