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The Festival of Flightgear-1&2 Nov, 2014

Virtual fly-ins, fun flies, competitions, and other group events. Find out details of upcoming events, register for competitions, or organize your own tour of a favorite location.

Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby METAL » Mon May 12, 2014 1:13 am

Now we're cooking with gas! I will start a dedicated thread for the ATC folks to work out coverage and other details, as that seems to be one of the more complicated aspects of this undertaking. As for advertising, I think we should use any and every method for advertising this event as possible. Like somebody said earlier (the posts are all blurring together in my brain) we shouldn't exclude anything. I even liked the idea of flying banners in MP, if that's possible we should do it!

As for signups and flightplans, I think we should keep things as simple and open as possible. Pilots who wish to can file flightplans and pre-register for the event, but it won't be necessary. Mostly we need to focus on working out ATC coverage and informing people of the what/when/where.

I'm also going to start a dedicated thread for the mini games that will reiterate all the info in this post and give people a chance to organize their own mini game. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby Philosopher » Mon May 12, 2014 1:26 am

Just throwing in a few cents for the wiki here; it's actually a great organization tool, including for holding discussions, storing data, and keeping lists. Plus it's open and editable, so everyone can contribute and not have a mile long topic to go through (aka eliminate redundancy, disparate comments and ideas/threads, etc.).
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby Jabberwocky » Mon May 12, 2014 5:13 am

Maybe not banners, I don't know whether this is possible in FG. But advertising-livery?
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby elgaton » Mon May 12, 2014 8:52 am

Lydiot wrote in Sun May 11, 2014 9:06 pm:I actually think the ATCs who are most interested can probably work a lot out in a dedicated thread on the forum, and then when stuff is solid port that over to an information thread and wiki. But I'm open to "doodling" whatever that is....

Doodle is a free scheduling helper - my plan was to use it (in addition to an appropriate forum thread) to plan ATC coverage, then to announce the resulting timetable on an information thread/wiki page and on Lenny's website.

Lydiot wrote in Sun May 11, 2014 9:06 pm:Can the flight plans on Lenny's website be automatically ported into Open Radar? Or would that happen manually?

Not at the moment, but that feature is planned for a future OpenRadar version.

Lydiot wrote in Sun May 11, 2014 9:06 pm:Also, sorry for the correction but it's a pet peeve of mine: "information", not "informations". It hurts my eyes.

My apologies - it was a bit late at night in my timezone and that "s" slipped in. :oops: Fixed.

Lydiot wrote in Sun May 11, 2014 9:06 pm:Like I said in an earlier post; I don't think flight plans should be required by pilots. I think it would be good if they had them, but if the goal is getting a lot of pilots to fly on one day then it shouldn't be a requirement.

That's my opinion as well - what me and IAHM-COL were saying was just that, while a list on this (or a dedicated) thread is fine for preliminary planning, when the definitive decisions are made pilots should just use Lenny's website - which is already in place - to announce their intentions instead of using separate tools; no need to reinvent the wheel :wink: Of course, flight planning, though appreciated, will definitely not be required (as you said, we want a high attendance).
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby SolarLiner » Mon May 12, 2014 3:15 pm

elgaton wrote in Sun May 11, 2014 8:15 pm:
Jabberwocky wrote in Sun May 11, 2014 6:36 pm:What if we put up a shared Doodle (or something like that) just to plan the ATC coverage.

That's where my idea of the map with ATCs shown come in. You can see before getting into the event who's where and who does what, based on schedules. Pilots who does not specifically have a flight plan (ie: VFR flights) can then be prepared to be controlled or not.
It can help for IFR flights planning to graphically see where the controlled areas are, and maybe play with the waypoints to be the most time possible in a controlled area.
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby elgaton » Mon May 12, 2014 3:40 pm

SolarLiner wrote in Mon May 12, 2014 3:15 pm:That's where my idea of the map with ATCs shown come in. You can see before getting into the event who's where and who does what, based on schedules. Pilots who does not specifically have a flight plan (ie: VFR flights) can then be prepared to be controlled or not.
It can help for IFR flights planning to graphically see where the controlled areas are, and maybe play with the waypoints to be the most time possible in a controlled area.

It's already in the beta version of Lenny's website.
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon May 12, 2014 3:48 pm

elgaton wrote in Mon May 12, 2014 3:40 pm:It's already in the beta version of Lenny's website.


Exact.
What does Solar mean? There is a map showing active ATC places, and a full schedule of planned events.
IMHO, somebody that knows howto browse internet should be able to get around Lenny's with no need to make easy thing harder, by creating more and more tools.

But that's just what I think :oops:

Now, if he, or anyone else wants to move to create a new tool of their own, they can. But I do not think we as community should give a planned idea priority over an already developed tool here for this event.
Furthermore, People can write Lenny with suggestions on how to make things "better" on their view, and I am sure he would nt mind another coding hands.

That way code savy people can Join forces, instead of divide. I would suggest.

Second Topic: The doodle. I think a doodle poll may be a really awesome tool for ATCs to figure out where is still empty for them to jump in and offer positions. Just choosing around empty place/times.

Third Topic (new): Just a word of Caution. A more fun event has a high ratio PILOT/ATC.
That is many Pilots, fewer ATC. I am bias, but that's how I see it.
There is fun also in many ATC positions in a single airport, but that's an explosive situation to coordinate well. Finally, Centers could be a nice alternative to provide realism.

Four topic (new): It will be kind (and I would actually expect) that anyone sitting on any ATC position does
  1. Verify (s)he can offer voice service
  2. Verify (s)he knows phraseology and proccedures at a good or more than good level
  3. Understand that ATC is a job of high responsability; A pilot may NOT KNOW, the ATC MUST know
  4. (derived from iii)Be patient of all skill levels on pilots, if this is to be inclusive event (no need to kick "noobs" out), being polite and instructing calmly goes a long way.
  5. have a nice understanding of the airspace (s)he wants to control. Somebody posted a nice Iberian Airways page above
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby Jabberwocky » Mon May 12, 2014 4:33 pm

Do we have some dedicated photo hunters with good graphic cards? It would be such a shame to lose pictures from that event!
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby Lydiot » Mon May 12, 2014 5:25 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Mon May 12, 2014 3:48 pm:Four topic (new): It will be kind (and I would actually expect) that anyone sitting on any ATC position does

  1. Verify (s)he can offer voice service
  2. Verify (s)he knows phraseology and proccedures at a good or more than good level
  3. Understand that ATC is a job of high responsability; A pilot may NOT KNOW, the ATC MUST know
  4. (derived from iii)Be patient of all skill levels on pilots, if this is to be inclusive event (no need to kick "noobs" out), being polite and instructing calmly goes a long way.
  5. have a nice understanding of the airspace (s)he wants to control. Somebody posted a nice Iberian Airways page above


I think everyone agrees. My earlier point was to have a separate thread (or wiki) for the ATCs of this event so they can work out which phraseology and procedures to use.
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby elgaton » Mon May 12, 2014 5:50 pm

Lydiot wrote in Mon May 12, 2014 5:25 pm:I think everyone agrees. My earlier point was to have a separate thread (or wiki) for the ATCs of this event so they can work out which phraseology and procedures to use.

OK - METAL, could you please start the ATC thread as announced?
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby Lydiot » Mon May 12, 2014 6:20 pm

Should there be a limit to how many and which areas are ATCed?
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon May 12, 2014 7:06 pm

I suggest yes. There should be a limit. That being: Keep it as in RL.

Example, if an aerodrome is not controlled, keep it like that.
If an aerodrome has a ground a twr and a ctr positions (ie, channels) then maximum 3 ATCs on that place
If an aerodrome has 2 channels for ground, 2 channel for tower and a channel for CTR then 5 should be the limit there.

see as an example, madrid could have 6 5 ATCs simultaneously

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=lemd

Barcelona could have 9

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=lebl

And Mallorca could havealso 6

https://www.ivao.aero/db/ss/airport.asp?Id=LEPA

Very much etc

List of busiests Spain airports


I do not think we could exceed these real life limits all over spain for a 48 hour span, so as soon as we keep it realistic, I think the limit is THE SKY


About Knowledgeable ATC here, it is important you understand the "Airspace" of your position.
Examples,
1) A GND controller clearing to land. Recipe for chaos
2) the typical welcome: <Pilot AIRXXXX you are entering LEMD_TWR airspace. Are you inbound? ATIS blah blah... FGCOM N/A ...etc>
But this pilot is at FL350!?
Who said that a pilot at FL350 entered a TWR airspace? (S)He is completely out of boundary of that airspace and that message really goes off domain (IMHO)

In other terms, it is important that ATCs know the boundaries of their responsabilities and that they are kept rigorously.
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Mon May 12, 2014 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon May 12, 2014 7:24 pm

To manage this ATC overload, Again (im redundant here) I suggest, just use Lennys
I believe we can do it now, and we can see in Real Time what's going on.

We should not need more tools for plan this.
Example.

If IHCOL were to decide to be tower at LEBL from 0:00 -> 2:00 UTC on SAT
Code (): Select all
All he needs to do is go to the lenny's and schedule, as LEBL_TWR


Image

Then everyone will see my plan, immediatelyThen ideally, everyone will be seeing my plan immediatedly. I am trying to contact Lenny to figure out how can we get the schedule for november already visible :roll:


Then Elgaton may say. OhMy, COL's so cool, Im gonna be his CTR, and schedule himself as LEBL_CTR for same day 0:00->4:00 (he has more time,so good)!! :D

We could see the event growing and the map should be able to show that!!
(mpserver 12 tracker also lists Lenny's schedule, so its pretty handy)

Potential pilots would go to the same Lenny's to see what's plan and plan his "flying around" that.

I think no-one should
1) schedule for less than 2 hours
2) schedule for more than 8 hours
3) schedule a time its uncertain can attend.

Except that, I think we should just begin filing that plansheet.

It will be cool to see it happening like that

About the wiki: That should contain info about expected phraseology, Airspaces, Airports in Spain, Mumble usage, Howtos, and stuff like that.
About the thread? Do we need more threads to keep our mouse swingin' around?
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Mon May 12, 2014 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby Rick Ace » Mon May 12, 2014 7:41 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Mon May 12, 2014 7:06 pm:In other terms, it is important that ATCs know the boundaries of their responsabilities and that they are kept rigorously.

I slightly disagree. I think it's more important for pilots to be aware of where they are headed, and to contact traffic controllers as needed.

For example, you wouldn't have a traffic controller trying to identify a random craft approaching the airport. Technically, it should be the pilot's job to contact the center FIRST.

There are several things pilots should do:

- If possible, file a flight plan. Even if you veer off-course, it would still be useful for ATCs to know what you're TRYING to do. And most importantly, they will know what your destination is and departure airport will be.

- Use the unicom (chat dialog) to inform nearby traffic of your destination and/or route.

- Air Traffic Controllers have a lot of work if we're going to expect a lot of traffic. If they bother you by mistake, just respond kindly that you are headed elsewhere in a timely fashion. At the end of the day, they are only volunteers trying to make your flight more enjoyable.

What we saw in KLAS was that the ATC sort of aimed planes on to different runways, and hoped that they would not get too close. As we saw, that didn't work out well. As a result, I think ATCs will have to make some changes as well...

- Take a good look at the aircraft's vectors before asking if you are "inbound" to ICAO code area. If the person is at ground elevation at another airport, that is clearly not the time to ask. :P

- Try to keep notes on all the planes within the area. If another ATC is talking to pilotXYZ, then it might be a good idea to note that pilotXYZ is headed to another airport.

- Have a good idea of the procedures around the airport.

- Leave the ground to pilots. A lot of time is wasted on startup, pushback, taxi via, and such (I'm not saying that it's always unneeded, but it's not needed since there are rarely more than a couple planes in an airport). It might be easier to focus on handling departure clearances, the runways, and approaches. The only reason why I'm suggesting this, is because I believe ATCs will have a lot more work on controlling planes already in the air.
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Re: The Ultimate MP Fly-in

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon May 12, 2014 7:51 pm

I agree with all you say Rick. But I believe you missed my point by a ballmark :D

All Im saying is if there is more than 1 ATC on a same airport, it is very important both know clearly where their task end.
In my example, TWR controller will not be pleased of a ground supplanting his duties.

Respect to who contact who. That goes both ways.
In principle, pilot is the one who initiate contact.
But if I get a pilot not doing it, and clearly heading INTO my airspace (not at FL350.. that is my second point), I do not see a major problem issuing a welcome, please state intentions message.
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