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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby FED-EX » Thu May 16, 2019 7:01 pm

I got to know that differently. If Jomo makes a mistake, he admits it and apologizes. And that promptly.

Regarding the troll mentioned here lately, it did not mean any pilots, but exactly one user who used the UID EDDFjom and provided ATC service, but it was not Jomo. Nobody else is and was meant in the chat dialogue in the MP. And I think AF1 (later AF2) was just the guy. Imagery, expression was almost identical. And although I told him what's going on, he turned himself on stupid. That was not credible.

And if I had to discuss with such guys every time, even though I want to be ATC, then that would annoy me too.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Octal450 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:32 pm

I had the same experience, FED-EX. Lydiot just likes to whine about how bad jomo is constantly. I just ignore him now as arguing with him is mostly pointless. Even when jomo makes mistakes with me, he always apologized.

Kind Regards,
Josh

PS: text chatting can be very frustrating to impossible when very busy! VATSIM controllers complain all the time about "text-pilots" so chances are one would get angry more faster. Not saying it is right, but I've never seen jomo cross the line personally.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby LH-1701 » Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 pm

Hi,

Me personally didnt have any bad experience with jomo.

I remember some situations where jomo was angry with other pilots via chat or it feels like so when reading the conversation, especially in busy airspace and/or when pilots try to disturb.

But i have also noticed that this has changed in the last weeks and i think jomo tries to be more calm on text chat.

I also have to say that as ATC you doesnt need to be a nice guy always. Listen to atcs in real world. Sometimes you need to be really fast, deal with multiple pilots and avoid problematic situations. There it can get a little loud, especially when you need to write in FG or VATSIM.

But the criticism is also right, most other ATC i dealed with feel more relaxed on text chat.

So i would say may everyone should try to be more calm and keep always in mind that text chat is much more complicated to read/write and follow for both sides.
I also urge the use of mumble.

There was also some critic reguarding realism:
To encounter more realism i have a few suggestions:

-as an alternative to your approach variant you can also ask the pilot to use a transition as they do in real life at EDDF.

-as far as i know the procedures in EDDF in real life are a bit different, for ex they use 25c/07c also for approaches and the usage of taxiways is different.
Can someone say more about this?

-switch virtually between positions(delivery,ground,approach/depart, center)
What i mean is for example : if you answer a ifr clearance (xxx on FLyyy is approved) add something like xxx on FLyyy is approved, contact Frankfurt ground same mumble channel .

-why not also assigning an approaching plane a gate or stand after vacating the runway and give taxi instructions?

For ex.

Atc:Lh1701 welcome to Frankfurt, vacate to the left and contact Frankfurt ground same mumble channel and report when ready to taxi.
Pilot: vacating left. Contact Frankfurt ground.
Pilot: Frankfurt ground , good day, we are ready to taxi.
ATC: lh1701 good evening, taxi to stand F223 via Mike cross runway 25c, Lima, november 14


Reguards

Tobias LH-1701
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Lydiot » Fri May 17, 2019 1:22 am

Octal450 wrote in Thu May 16, 2019 8:32 pm:I had the same experience, FED-EX. Lydiot just likes to whine about how bad jomo is constantly. I just ignore him now as arguing with him is mostly pointless.


Of course you'd say that. I proved what you asked me to prove.

Lucky you the moderators removed all those posts - that way you get to whine about me pointing out something that is true without other people seeing how wrong the two of you are.

You're being dishonest.

Again.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Octal450 » Fri May 17, 2019 3:28 am

Thank you for proving my point -- you really didn't read anything I wrote back then did you? (Although, honestly what was I expecting?)

Kind Regards,
Josh
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Fri May 17, 2019 8:38 am

LH-1701 wrote in Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 pm:Hi,
To encounter more realism i have a few suggestions:

Thanks for those suggestion - maybe some more would like to comment! See my comments following:

as an alternative to your approach variant you can also ask the pilot to use a transition as they do in real life at EDDF.
At EDDF we use SID/STARS as seen on the Radar/Screen-films - and it did cost me a lot of time to put them onto the screen - in order to be able to supervise traffic! And even for these (more easy) procedures there are only very few (1% ?) pilots using them. To add other procedures to it (which most pilots will not even know what that is) would be a lot of more burden for the single ATC. But I would appreciate if more pilots would use the STAR/SIDs.

as far as i know the procedures in EDDF in real life are a bit different, for ex they use 25c/07c also for approaches and the usage of taxiways is different.
That is correct. I changed that to help beginners: i.e. nobody gets delayed if a beginner needs 10 sec or 10 min to get ready to start. And it is easy to remember "use tw L for incoming - N for outgoing". To force every plane to a unique parking-position requires a lot more ATC work - i.e. would need a GND-ATC for a 4h job for each session if he may sit there for many hours without work! I tried that several times - but none ever tried it a second time! So again: That is done to ease this so (even new-bee) pilots can do that themselves! It really always became very confusing if a GND-ctrl is assigned but not available when needed! That happened every time I tried - so I do not accept GND or other support-ATCs any more!

switch virtually between positions(delivery,ground,approach/depart, center)
I am not sure how that should work: Using 5 different FGFS-IDs (as well on typing as on mumble!) instead of the one we use today? No - I would not like that additional burden for a single ATC! That may be ok if only 1 plane arrives - but sometimes there are 5 same time - I am afraid that would lead to a lot confusion (and my brain may explode!). e.g. how would you know/remember with what ID you were just talking to what pilot - and reverse.

why not also assigning an approaching plane a gate or stand after vacating the runway and give taxi instructions?
We tried that - but most pilots do not know were that stand is or do not like it! And ATC must know all Airplane sizes and company area etc. (Gate, Lot, e.t.c) or pilots would just like to discuss why this and not that. Again: I am afraid that would be nice if you have may ATCs that have learned to work in a team. And be aware: How to remember which Pilot has a unique parkinglot (like e.g.LH-1701).

But we could try to do that, if somebody wants to take over one (or two..) of those jobs 4 times a week for 4h -- BUT he/she(i would prefer a she) would accept being available all 4h - even if in those 4h only 2 planes come in/out!

And please remember: I want to be a guide/teacher especially for newbies that want to "upgrade" to join VATSIM (if they want to fly in a complete realistic environment!)

But I guess that proposal is worth discussing (even if I am not really convinced it will work)!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby RogerDodger » Fri May 17, 2019 9:39 am

Hello,

Just to start on a positive note, referring to both Josh (Octal) and Lydiot. I don't want to make it personal, and it shouldn't go that way. I think LH-1701 summed it up the best!! from both points of view. It's all in the past, and I will hop by to visit EDDF again to hope to have a positive experience (this time with a working mic jack) :D

Now let's get to the professional matters, it's more interesting :)

- SID/STAR - I noticed that there is no use of SID at all, I was a bit surprised getting a clearance "EGKK at FL320 ok" and before take off "climb to: cruise". I wonder what pilots think here. because it's more interesting to depart with SID and initial climb and all the other restrictions in the chart since it makes the departure more interesting and realistic. Departing direct to cruise with one turn towards destination is quite boring.
If you think (jomo) that there are many pilots without much clue, maybe just to ask before clearance if they know to use SID, and if not, just clear them direct.

-Switch between positions - It does seem a bit funny to do, because of how the mumble is built. I agree with jomo that this would work only if there will be other ATC. If I would see that the event in Basel works fine, I can try to do that if there would be any ATC who would want to join. Sorry jomo, 4h, 4 times a week, requires a salary :D :D

- assigning gate and taxi - of course there should be taxi instructions for arriving planes, I did notice though that in many airports in openradar the parkings and gates are not marked or marked wrong. First I think that a pilot that arrives must have a chart to know the spots (also for taxiing, etc.), isn't that the situation jomo? Second, it's true that it requires the atc to remember also gate sizes etc. (and that could be difficult if there is traffic), but also I notice that the scenery is not so accurate anyway, so a mistake here is not a big deal. Maybe to assign a random gate just to add some realism? (don't think company area is so important though, nothing would happen if you park an emirates plane in the lufthansa terminal :) )

anyway, that's my 2 cents.
Have a nice day!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby V12 » Fri May 17, 2019 10:33 am

Assigning taxiway and gates :

Speedbird 206: Good morning Frankfurt, Speedbird 206 clear of the active runway.
Ground: Guten morgen, taxi to your gate.
[The British Airways 747 pulls onto the main taxiway and stops.]
Ground: Speedbird, do you not know where you are going?
Speedbird 206: Stand by, ground, I'm looking up the gate location now.
Ground: [mit impatience] Speedbird 206, have you never flown to Frankfurt before?
Speedbird 206: [coolly] Yes, two times in 1944. But it was a bit different Boeing , in the dark night and I didn't stop :) :) :)
Fly high, fly fast - fly Concorde !
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Lydiot » Fri May 17, 2019 11:40 am

Octal450 wrote in Fri May 17, 2019 3:28 am:Thank you for proving my point -- you really didn't read anything I wrote back then did you? (Although, honestly what was I expecting?)

Kind Regards,
Josh


Thanks for proving my point. You're still being dishonest.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby daweed » Fri May 17, 2019 11:51 am

RogerDodger wrote in Fri May 17, 2019 9:39 am:Switch between positions - It does seem a bit funny to do, because of how the mumble is built


It's can be done, easily, well fact, it's already have been done on the other mumble server. Each airport have is own room, and each have Approach / Tower and Ground Room.
FIR room have been created too as you can see on the screenshot.

Image

This have been done to be able to use FGExtend in it's full capacity. (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30691).
FG Extend is a small add on made by Icare38 (AF2222) that make possible to link your radio panel in your 3d cockpit to mumble, when you change frequency on you RMP, your are moved to the room according the frequency you settup and the distance [ ie if you are over Paris, you will not be able to join EDDF room .... ]
You don't act directly on mumble, just setup the frequency on you radio panel.

More that one server can be setup [ so the "official mumble server" and the "Autosoft" one can live together
The Autosoft server has been installed & configured because Icare and Josh seem to have not been able to agree on how it should be setup. [This requires a little work at first, but after all, it's a pleasure to use]

But the fact, and i am agree with Jomo on this point [ i have given a try on to manage 3 positions even with poor traffic ] it's not easy to do it alone.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Octal450 » Fri May 17, 2019 12:46 pm

What possibly reason would I have for being dishonest? I'm not being paid by jomo...

But yes, all you've done is attack me for being "dishonest" instead if trying to prove your point . I don't know what that is supposed to prove. I've not been dishonest with anyone here as there is no point. So I still think it comes down to you not reading (or understanding) anything I wrote back then.

You can keep complaining about jomo or me and I'll keep enjoying the service and we'll agree to disagree.

Kind Regards,
Josh
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Octal450 » Fri May 17, 2019 12:53 pm

Dear daweed,
Icare and Josh seem to have not been able to agree on how it should be setup

Not really. What actually happened is I had a bad experience with the hosting that they use and preferred not to use it. Then, somehow, I was attacked and told that I had been "trolling and whining about becoming an admin" or something ridiculous like that (which as I said before, NEVER happened, especially since I have NO TIME to even admin my own server, and rely on friends to do so) (does that seem like my character after all I've done here in and for FG???). Essentially they confused me with the same coo-coo who came on discord doing the same thing. (fake dany93 I think) Even after I explained all of this I received no apology, so I just do not deal with them anymore (but I also don't have any hate. Just wanted an apology for the false accusations). Following an apology I would have no problems using their service again as my issues with the hosters have been cleared up.

Kind Regards,
Josh
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby daweed » Fri May 17, 2019 1:29 pm

I'm not really aware of what happened between you two [ it was only my guess ] and I do not even want to be part of it . So sorry if there is in my previous message a false information and thank you for correcting.
That said it is unfortunate that it is not possible to install the complete structure of salons on your server, it would allow the use of FG Extend on your server directly.

PS: It made it possible to use FG Extend with Josh's server, but only the tower frequency is available.

PS2: What would be the process for creating a new salon when adding frequency if you decide to respond favorably to the implementation of the arboresce on the "official" mumble?

PS3 : We have all encountered problems with the hosters (at the time Zenserv), since some month it has been changed for another hoster and the problem related to the operation and connection does not exist anymore

cordially

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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Octal450 » Fri May 17, 2019 2:52 pm

Dear daweed,
I am open to adding FGExtend support. Just tell me what is necessary to do.

Kind Regards,
Josh
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Re: FGExtend precisions.

Postby icare38 » Fri May 17, 2019 4:50 pm

Hi, Bonjour,
I'm only trying to provide a realistic radio system (and a little more).
To do that, i need full admin access to the murmur server, that's why i'd create mine.
I don't think the Approach/Tower/Ground structure is a problem, just connect as ATC on Approach or Tower position.
In true life, in case of LFLL (coucou Daweed), in the middle of the night, the only active position is Approach, and everything is ok (pilots are NOT switched to Tower or Ground frequencies).

PS
To FGFS developers:
Ill' be very happy when ai(?)/mp related big memory leak will be fixed.

Best regards.
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