Board index FlightGear Multiplayer events

EDDF-Triangle

Virtual fly-ins, fun flies, competitions, and other group events. Find out details of upcoming events, register for competitions, or organize your own tour of a favorite location.

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby DJFJ98 » Sun May 13, 2012 2:05 am

polly wrote in Sat May 12, 2012 9:36 pm:Your call, Capn, depending what you're in it for. If you're trying to keep it real then, whether or not you get help from ATC, planning for alternate landings in an emergency is your responsibility; with five miles glide maybe a 180 to return was not such a good idea and you should have been declaring a Miracle on the Rhine anyway. Probably doing ATC for a bunch of simmers is like trying to herd cats and is tough enough; you might want to cut them all some slack and pre-arrange if you want to practise pan pan events in company. Best.

You DO prove a valid point. I should have planned it a little better. But still to say "Theres plenty of woods to land in" OR "You're no longer allowed at EDDF" is just wrong.
DJFJ98
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:13 pm
Location: Michigan, USA
Callsign: GVC0332
Version: 3.0
OS: Mac OS X

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Tuxklok » Sun May 13, 2012 3:46 am

I was not witness to the event, and as such will not try to comment on his or your actions, nor his or your spoken/written dialog...and I encourage others who were not witness to not do so as well. If you feel you that jomo overreacted or was rude or whatever, you should contact him directly and talk it over...jomo's good people. ;)

Everyone should try to understand though, that providing ATC in flightgear in its current state is a very unique (and often frustrating) challenge. You have a very random mix of people, ages, experiences, motives, etc...it can difficult to keep any semblance of order even when people don't act outside the norm. So if you are going to act outside the norm, you should do so with care and be ready to end your "emergency" immediately if the ATC requests you do so...and hopefully it should all happen calmly and respectfully. This is how it works in other (virtual) ATC environments and how I think it should be in flightgear as well. You can say "emergency"...the atc can say "no emergency"..and you should then continue on normally.

cheers!
The Austria Scenery Project - more info
fg-scenery-tools - gitorious | videos
fgcomgui - Open source, cross platform, gui front end for fgcom. more info

More random musings and doings can be found on my personal site. (work in progress)
User avatar
Tuxklok
 
Posts: 1326
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: Orlando, FL
Callsign: Tuxklok / N1292P
OS: GNU/Linux

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sun May 13, 2012 9:04 am

DJFJ98 wrote in Sat May 12, 2012 7:34 pm:... I was flying a 747 8i from Frankfurt to Heathrow. Shortly after takeoff I had engine failure in all four engines. I radioed in and said I had engine failure and needed to return to the airport. .... He said " What do (you) expect me to do" I replied " I expect you to react properly and guide me safely back to the airport or the nearest airport to me." Sounds like a pretty reasonable expectation right? I then crashed into a hillside about 5-10 miles from EDDF.

Well in general we agree on the "happening" - but let me try to explain the general environment:
    Usually a pilot requests something and the ATC allows/advises -- unless a pilot declares an emergency: Then he is allowed to act as he deems it necessary and ATC must support as good as possible (of course that means that the pilot must advise ATC about his plans -- have a look into the reconstructions of the happenings during the "NY Hudson Landing"). But for sure a local ATC cannot just "guide you safely back to the airport or the nearest airport"! How do you expect an ATC flying your plan (for which you had years of training to be "Pilot in Command"!)? Again: During a real emergency the pilot has to decide and ATC has to support as good as possible!
    In an FGFS-event (like EDDF-Triangle) every unique participant should respect the wishes and expectations of the group -- and not try to enforce something onto the others against their will! As much as the ATC cannot lawsuit you for whatever you do - you cannot not do the reverse! Of course with a simulator you can exercise "emergencies" - but why amongst a group of people that all will suffer from that?? Invite people who are interested in that and exercise as much as you want wherever you want (but please not where some others are exercising something different!).
Besides that let me try to analyze and explain what actually happened:
    You declared an Emergency in a situation where you had no chance to return to EDDF (You verified this (my initial assessment) by crashing "into a hillside about 5-10 miles from EDDF)"
      Befor that You did refuse to tell ATC what your emergency plan is
      instead you just returned heading back to EDDF, obviously in an attempt to land downwind (rw 07x (x because there are 3 rw's parallel)) - i.e. on crash course to 4 other aircraft being on approach (for rw 25x). Not all of those 4 could have been deviated in order to not collide with you (and for sure you would have needed more than 1 ATC to do that - compare the reality: There would have been dedicated 2 ATCs for that emergency - and all others (GND, TWR, AREA, etc.) would just care about the rest!
      When you obviously headed against the other traffic, I advised you "You are not allowed to land in EDDF - use ETOU" (I did not say "you are no longer allowed at EDDF"!)
      Somehow I do not understand why you did not follow that advise: ETOU is just about parallel to EDDF (with no opposed traffic!) and was even 5 miles closer to your then, actual position!
        A click onto "Menu --> Equipment --> Map" would have shown you all you needed to know for landing there , including runway headings and your position to it, etc.
        Again back to reality: Look onto the MPmap in that area: Coming from the NortWest: Why did you not take the Rhein for landing? I assume everybody interested in flying (and about everybody else too) knows the "NY Hudson Landing" - the situation was pretty much the same (I guess that even was your basic idea!) - except that they were already about downwind in between to 2 other airports (LaGuardia KLGA + Newark KEWR) -- i.e their chance to land on either of them (as suggested by ATC) was bigger than yours yesterday - but famous "Sully" Sullenberger (Polly: Thanks for your comment!) decided to take the river and try something "controlled" - not just crashing! If you need some supporting instruction materials see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549 and several hundreds of videos to that
    So let me conclude: The "EDDF-Triangle" definitely is open for everybody who wants to exercise controlled flying - for many visitors there it is even difficult to hold altitude, heading, speed and do a nice landing (with and even without Autopilot!) -- training that is the major goal for the EDDF-Triangle. If there is time, Eric (ELLX) and me (and other ATCs in the area, e.g. EDDS, EDLP, EDDH, etc.) will be glade to exercise "emergencies" or whatever some pilots want - but not when there are 10 other pilots under ATC control at the same time! That is just not possible!! Sorry!

    Still I hope you learned something from that "outside landing"!
    Otherwise I also support to exercise with VATSIM: They actually do a good job in training pilots (and ATC's) and provide a realistic professional flying environment (with many ATC's worldwide). My priorities at EDDF are the "hobby simmers" who want to improve their basic flying skills - prior to go into a basic Flying-School and spend hours of "Flight Planning". One more tip for getting into that is (within FGFS):
I hope we all can continue having fun while training at the EDDF-Triangle
joe
jomo / ATCjomo + EDDFjo1 + EDDFjo2
ATC at EDDF Fr,Sa,Su,We from 20:00 to 24:00 CET/MEZ., see http://www.emmerich-j.de
User avatar
jomo
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:46 pm
Location: Mainz, Germany
Callsign: jomo jomoATC
OS: UBUNTU 18.4

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby islandmonkey » Sun May 13, 2012 11:04 am

So let me conclude: The "EDDF-Triangle" definitely is open for everybody who wants to exercise controlled flying - for many visitors there it is even difficult to hold altitude, heading, speed and do a nice landing (with and even without Autopilot!) -- training that is the major goal for the EDDF-Triangle. If there is time, Eric (ELLX) and me (and other ATCs in the area, e.g. EDDS, EDLP, EDDH, etc.) will be glade to exercise "emergencies" or whatever some pilots want - but not when there are 10 other pilots under ATC control at the same time! That is just not possible!! Sorry!


Well if a plane has an emergency, usual procedure is to make that plane the highest priority. Why not tell everyone who was on approach to whatever runway it was to abort their landings and say - create a holding pattern at MTR, then you can just deal with them later.
User avatar
islandmonkey
 
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:51 pm
Location: EGCN (uni), EGHI (home)
Callsign: G-MNKY
OS: Ubuntu 20.04

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby islandmonkey » Sun May 13, 2012 11:20 am

jomo wrote in Sun May 13, 2012 11:04 am:So let me conclude: The "EDDF-Triangle" definitely is open for everybody who wants to exercise controlled flying - for many visitors there it is even difficult to hold altitude, heading, speed and do a nice landing (with and even without Autopilot!) -- training that is the major goal for the EDDF-Triangle. If there is time, Eric (ELLX) and me (and other ATCs in the area, e.g. EDDS, EDLP, EDDH, etc.) will be glade to exercise "emergencies" or whatever some pilots want - but not when there are 10 other pilots under ATC control at the same time! That is just not possible!! Sorry!


Well if a plane has an emergency, usual procedure is to make that plane the highest priority. Why not tell everyone who was on approach to whatever runway it was to abort their landings and say - create a holding pattern at MTR, then you can just deal with them later.

Also somewhat unrelated, I'm sure the A parking positions at ELLX are meant to hold things bigger than A320's, right?

Problem is is that they don't:

Image
User avatar
islandmonkey
 
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:51 pm
Location: EGCN (uni), EGHI (home)
Callsign: G-MNKY
OS: Ubuntu 20.04

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby D-EKEW » Sun May 13, 2012 1:50 pm

Actually, the parking positions are just fine (also for that aircraft). However parking positions in scenery are defined where the aircraft nosewheel is. So that every aircraft regardless of its length is placed correctly relative to the jetway.
However FG places aircraft with their Centre of Gravity...which will give you the problem you have encountered. I have tried to have this solved some time ago:
http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13368&p=135299#p135299
and
http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=13527&p=136733#p136733

However I do not know if Durk ever got around of implementing this. If he did, the aircraft just needs to have this offset implemented!

Cheers,

Eric
D-EKEW
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:22 pm
Callsign: D-EKEW, ELLX-TWR
Version: git
OS: Linux

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sun May 13, 2012 4:00 pm

islandmonkey wrote in Sun May 13, 2012 11:20 am:Why not tell everyone who was on approach to whatever runway it was to abort their landings and say - create a holding pattern at MTR, then you can just deal with them later.

Well exactly that is the difference between FGFS and VATSIM and Reality.
VATSIM and REALITY expect from Pilots to know how to fly (with and without AutoPilot) and certainly require professionalism from all pilots (including the knowledge of ILS and VOR)!

We do not! And we do not want to require that as a prerequisite for the EDDF-Triangel!
I know that you have visited the EDDF-Trinagle several times and you must have noticed that we initially always ask "Can you use ILS and/or VOR?". My estimate is, that about 70% know how to use ILS, only 30% of those are also able to use VOR, and the Rest is using "visual". In those 70% are about 10% that say they do know - but actually do not! And only about 40% use FGcom!

By the way: Why do you believe we need to create a "Holding Pattern" at MTR? There is one, and there are more at KNG, CHA, PSA, TAU, RID (see e.g. http://www.emmerich-j.de/HB/EN/B5_KnowH ... ocId342302). May even be that you believe you could follow such advise (and even knew the VOR frequencies before approaching EDDF) --- but are you sure we can (or should) enforce that knowledge from all FGFS pilots?

I definitely do not want to do that
--- but at VATSIM you should! Please be aware that I do not see VATSIM as an opponent - but as a chance for even more realistic flying with any pilots in any simulator
joe
jomo / ATCjomo + EDDFjo1 + EDDFjo2
ATC at EDDF Fr,Sa,Su,We from 20:00 to 24:00 CET/MEZ., see http://www.emmerich-j.de
User avatar
jomo
 
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:46 pm
Location: Mainz, Germany
Callsign: jomo jomoATC
OS: UBUNTU 18.4

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby islandmonkey » Sun May 13, 2012 5:39 pm

Or, tell them all to just go around (say turn left/right heading whateverheading) and then deal with the emergency first.
User avatar
islandmonkey
 
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:51 pm
Location: EGCN (uni), EGHI (home)
Callsign: G-MNKY
OS: Ubuntu 20.04

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby D-EKEW » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:23 pm

Dear valued FG pilots,

It is time again for an scenery update of the EDDF-ELLX package! Download the latest from http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/EDDF-ELLX.zip. This time some small corrections to ELLX and of course more buildings.
The biggest change however can be found in the ELLX "procedures" file. You now can select the Approach to your STAR (arrival) in the Autopilot-->Route Manager.

A small note on the continuing MPserver problems. It seems the interconnection between the individual MPservers is somewhat unreliable, therefore the ATC-s around EDDF agreed to connect to MPserver08 only. For the best 'Triangle' experience I suggest you do the same!
Note you can change mpserver in flight: Multiplayer--> Multiplayer Settings: Disconnect, select server and Connect!

Enjoy and try not to hit the runway too hard on landing. It tends to upsets the passengers, your aircraft maintenance personal and the guys who need to repair the runway afterwards.

Cheers,

Eric
D-EKEW
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:22 pm
Callsign: D-EKEW, ELLX-TWR
Version: git
OS: Linux

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Omega » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:01 am


:lol:
The engine is the heart of an aeroplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User avatar
Omega
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Callsign: Star,EHAA_CT,MIA0176
IRC name: Omega
Version: GIT
OS: Vista,7,Ubuntu 10.04

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Johan G » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:06 pm

Blocked... :| :roll:
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
Improving the Dassault Mirage F1 (Wiki, Forum, GitLab. Work in slow progress)
Johan G
Moderator
 
Posts: 5691
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Sweden
Callsign: SE-JG
IRC name: Johan_G
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Windows 7, 32 bit

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby StuartC » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:14 pm

Nice to see they know who to call on when a military response is required. :twisted:
StuartC
 
Posts: 2811
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Arse end of the Universe
Callsign: WF01
Version: 2019.1
OS: W10 64 bit

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Omega » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:51 am

@Johan J, sorry but I can't do anything if it's blocked in your country. You might have to get a proxy just to watch it if you can't resist :P .

@StuartC, :D .
The engine is the heart of an aeroplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User avatar
Omega
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Callsign: Star,EHAA_CT,MIA0176
IRC name: Omega
Version: GIT
OS: Vista,7,Ubuntu 10.04

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby islandmonkey » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:25 pm

Er, no, it's unwatchable even here in the UK because Mr. E.V Ilawyer spotted it and blocked it on copyright grounds.
User avatar
islandmonkey
 
Posts: 794
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:51 pm
Location: EGCN (uni), EGHI (home)
Callsign: G-MNKY
OS: Ubuntu 20.04

Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Omega » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:34 pm

That's because I used an online service to make this video where you can make your own Hitler video by adding fake subtitles :D .
The engine is the heart of an aeroplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User avatar
Omega
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Callsign: Star,EHAA_CT,MIA0176
IRC name: Omega
Version: GIT
OS: Vista,7,Ubuntu 10.04

PreviousNext

Return to Multiplayer events

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests