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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:37 pm

AAL545 wrote in Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:20 pm:
the main thing is to also ensure folks are using the same MP protocol version


Can you please clarify "MP protocol version"
Are you referring to every pilot or just Jomo.

every pilot and ATC should all be using the same MP version... there is/was a setting for it in the MP config area in the sim...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:47 pm

jomo wrote in Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:23 pm:
wkitty42 wrote in Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:13 am:a lot of folks are complaining that they can't do thing in that network like they can on the internet... we don't care...
No idea what your work is - surely not in any position where you have to care about the future of the company and/or income for employees.

then you should not comment about it if you do not know about it... if i did not do what i do and enforce security policies, the companies i deal with could be hacked, trade secrets stolen, data deleted, etc... i won't even mention employee PII (Personally Identifiable Information) and identity theft...

jomo wrote in Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:23 pm:Because customers surely will care abut THEIR profit - if you do not care to offer always the best for the customer (independent of what is best for you) - they will not care about you! May be you change your mind when your company disappears and your salary changes accordingly.

as a network and systems administrator, i will not enable or allow to be used known faulty protocols... in the case i gave as an example, they were using the old NETBIOS/NETBEUI protocols... aka SMB1 or Server Message Block 1... it is widely know that this protocol is penetrable... SMB1 has been turned OFF and things that used to use it no longer work, period... if someone needs connectivity like that that SMB1 was used to provide, they must contact the network department and request a solution to be implemented... that solution WILL NOT be reenabling SMB1, though...

i just wanted to clarify that... nothing more...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Report on ATCjomo at EDDF

Postby fg101 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:23 am

Hello everyone,
I am fg101 and I was doing a short trip from EDDM to EDDF on 29th April 2018 at around 18:30 UTC and was in contact with ATCjomo. Now, I was inbound EDDF at around 60 NM out and i kept waiting for further instructions and kept asking him for further instructions and never replied. Later, he replied saying to turn left heading 70 when i was at heading 260 or something. I then input heading 70 into the autopilot and as it happened a right turn was shorter to heading 70 than ATCjomo's left turn so the autopilot took a right turn. since that happened, he started sending messages to me with "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" which is completely annoying. :evil: :evil: :evil: :x and then i kept awaiting further instructions and kept asking him but he never replied. So, I was expecting Rwy 25R and took a turn towards there since he never replied after waiting for a long time. He did the same thing to others (eg. D-SCAD) etc. Then, he neglected all who he never replied. He keeps neglecting everyone. And I don't like neglects from such people as they did not follow the rules and in turn neglect us.
Please file a complaint on him and make sure that this does not happen again.

Thank-you,
regards,
fg101
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Re: Report on ATCjomo at EDDF

Postby tdammers » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:06 pm

fg101 wrote in Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:23 am:Hello everyone,
I am fg101 and I was doing a short trip from EDDM to EDDF on 29th April 2018 at around 18:30 UTC and was in contact with ATCjomo. Now, I was inbound EDDF at around 60 NM out and i kept waiting for further instructions and kept asking him for further instructions and never replied. Later, he replied saying to turn left heading 70 when i was at heading 260 or something. I then input heading 70 into the autopilot and as it happened a right turn was shorter to heading 70 than ATCjomo's left turn so the autopilot took a right turn. since that happened, he started sending messages to me with "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" which is completely annoying. :evil: :evil: :evil: :x and then i kept awaiting further instructions and kept asking him but he never replied. So, I was expecting Rwy 25R and took a turn towards there since he never replied after waiting for a long time. He did the same thing to others (eg. D-SCAD) etc. Then, he neglected all who he never replied. He keeps neglecting everyone. And I don't like neglects from such people as they did not follow the rules and in turn neglect us.
Please file a complaint on him and make sure that this does not happen again.

Thank-you,
regards,
fg101


Well, you did violate ATC advice. The !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thing is maybe a bit, uhm, peculiar, but from my own experience I can assure you that as long as you're being nice and follow the rules, Jomo will be nice to you as well.

Normally, when you are being asked to turn left when a right turn would get you on the prescribed heading faster, the thing to do is to ask ATC to repeat the instruction ("Frankfurt Tower, say again, {you callsign}"), ask for confirmation ("Frankfurt Tower, confirm left 070, {your callsign}"), ask for your heading to be verified against radar readings ("Frankfurt Tower, my heading reads 260, can you confirm, {your callsign}"), ask for a right turn ("Frankfurt Tower, request right turn 070, {your callsign}"). Either way, you do not turn in the other direction by your own initiative, and you definitely do not head towards the runway and land, unless you have sufficient clearance to proceed on the "lost contact" procedure. IRL, you would receive clearance for a specific approach by its name, which would tell you the correct contact loss procedure and authorize you to fly it uncontrolled; however Jomo doesn't usually use the official STARs and Transitions, so it's somewhat unclear what the contact-loss procedure would be. However, you will typically receive a message saying something like "Expect runway 25R, ILS 123.45, {further info like weather, rwy conditions, etc.}", and you should absolutely never initiate final before you receive this message.

If you suspect a communication failure, you can also request a radio check ("Frankfurt Tower, radio check {your callsign}"), to which EDDF should reply with something like "{your callsign}, I hear/read you loud and clear" or "{your callsign}, I read you 5/5".

And the autopilot is not a valid excuse; you are the pilot, you are in charge, and you are expected to keep the aircraft under control. If the autopilot doesn't do what you expect, you need to intervene immediately, either by fixing the problem, or by disabling the autopilot and flying manually. Also, tip - many aircraft allow you to turn the heading knob gently while it's armed, which will automatically cause a turn in the right direction: simply turn the knob left to turn left. Unless you turn it so fast as to "flip over", the aircraft will keep turning left, even if the total turn is more than 180 degrees, because by the time you have turned the knob all the way to the target, you will have made enough of the turn already to keep the difference below 180 degrees.

Finally, if you're flying something unfamiliar, or you're inexperienced with radio comm and flying under ATC, it's a good idea to say so right from the start, because if you don't, people will assume you know what you're doing.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:24 pm

Please file a complaint on him and make sure that this does not happen again.


What I would highly recommend is to use Mumble. Saturday and Sunday was fairly busy and if ATC has to respond with typing there is going to be a delay.
What I have found is if its busy I need to make sure I'm entering the EDDF radar zone no higher then 31000' or lower just in case of a delay from ATC.
I started with typing and because I'm not fast on the keyboard I think I was not far off from getting neglected.
It's all about timing; from my experience if there are two or more planes arriving and within 10 to 15 miles they have priority, those further out are next, then those on the ground pending the communication, typing or Mumble.
I know its not as busy as in the real world but sometimes it is (timing). What we have to consider is most of us aren't planned arrivals (we just show up).
In the real world every flight is planned and in the real world departure and arrival is done by two separate ATC's.
I feel for you, and this not to knock you or Jomo but what I have found out a long time ago is when dealing with people we have to adjust (to a point), and that goes both ways.
No offence, I'm just trying to help out.



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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:21 pm

AAL545 wrote in Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:24 pm:
Please file a complaint on him and make sure that this does not happen again.


What I would highly recommend is to use Mumble. Saturday and Sunday was fairly busy and if ATC has to respond with typing there is going to be a delay.
What I have found is if its busy I need to make sure I'm entering the EDDF radar zone no higher then 31000' or lower just in case of a delay from ATC.
I started with typing and because I'm not fast on the keyboard I think I was not far off from getting neglected.
It's all about timing; from my experience if there are two or more planes arriving and within 10 to 15 miles they have priority, those further out are next, then those on the ground pending the communication, typing or Mumble.
I know its not as busy as in the real world but sometimes it is (timing). What we have to consider is most of us aren't planned arrivals (we just show up).
In the real world every flight is planned and in the real world departure and arrival is done by two separate ATC's.
I feel for you, and this not to knock you or Jomo but what I have found out a long time ago is when dealing with people we have to adjust (to a point), and that goes both ways.
No offence, I'm just trying to help out.



AAL4955


Amen to everything here.

Voice comm is going to get you prioritized, not just with Jomo but with pretty much every ATC, simply because it's so much easier for them to deal with (plus it's easier for you to talk while operating the aircraft).

As far as ATC workload goes: the real EDDF handles close to half a million aircraft movements per year, that's over 50 per hour on average, so during peak hours, takeoffs and landings are less than 2 minutes apart, probably even down to 1 minute. Let that sink in for a minute. Now, they do have a lot more than one or two ATC handling things, but even so, it's going to be a lot more stressful than anything you will possibly get to see in FG.
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Re: Report on ATCjomo at EDDF

Postby fg101 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:09 pm

tdammers wrote in Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:06 pm:
fg101 wrote in Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:23 am:Hello everyone,
I am fg101 and I was doing a short trip from EDDM to EDDF on 29th April 2018 at around 18:30 UTC and was in contact with ATCjomo. Now, I was inbound EDDF at around 60 NM out and i kept waiting for further instructions and kept asking him for further instructions and never replied. Later, he replied saying to turn left heading 70 when i was at heading 260 or something. I then input heading 70 into the autopilot and as it happened a right turn was shorter to heading 70 than ATCjomo's left turn so the autopilot took a right turn. since that happened, he started sending messages to me with "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" which is completely annoying. :evil: :evil: :evil: :x and then i kept awaiting further instructions and kept asking him but he never replied. So, I was expecting Rwy 25R and took a turn towards there since he never replied after waiting for a long time. He did the same thing to others (eg. D-SCAD) etc. Then, he neglected all who he never replied. He keeps neglecting everyone. And I don't like neglects from such people as they did not follow the rules and in turn neglect us.
Please file a complaint on him and make sure that this does not happen again.

Thank-you,
regards,
fg101


Well, you did violate ATC advice. The !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thing is maybe a bit, uhm, peculiar, but from my own experience I can assure you that as long as you're being nice and follow the rules, Jomo will be nice to you as well.

Normally, when you are being asked to turn left when a right turn would get you on the prescribed heading faster, the thing to do is to ask ATC to repeat the instruction ("Frankfurt Tower, say again, {you callsign}"), ask for confirmation ("Frankfurt Tower, confirm left 070, {your callsign}"), ask for your heading to be verified against radar readings ("Frankfurt Tower, my heading reads 260, can you confirm, {your callsign}"), ask for a right turn ("Frankfurt Tower, request right turn 070, {your callsign}"). Either way, you do not turn in the other direction by your own initiative, and you definitely do not head towards the runway and land, unless you have sufficient clearance to proceed on the "lost contact" procedure. IRL, you would receive clearance for a specific approach by its name, which would tell you the correct contact loss procedure and authorize you to fly it uncontrolled; however Jomo doesn't usually use the official STARs and Transitions, so it's somewhat unclear what the contact-loss procedure would be. However, you will typically receive a message saying something like "Expect runway 25R, ILS 123.45, {further info like weather, rwy conditions, etc.}", and you should absolutely never initiate final before you receive this message.

If you suspect a communication failure, you can also request a radio check ("Frankfurt Tower, radio check {your callsign}"), to which EDDF should reply with something like "{your callsign}, I hear/read you loud and clear" or "{your callsign}, I read you 5/5".

And the autopilot is not a valid excuse; you are the pilot, you are in charge, and you are expected to keep the aircraft under control. If the autopilot doesn't do what you expect, you need to intervene immediately, either by fixing the problem, or by disabling the autopilot and flying manually. Also, tip - many aircraft allow you to turn the heading knob gently while it's armed, which will automatically cause a turn in the right direction: simply turn the knob left to turn left. Unless you turn it so fast as to "flip over", the aircraft will keep turning left, even if the total turn is more than 180 degrees, because by the time you have turned the knob all the way to the target, you will have made enough of the turn already to keep the difference below 180 degrees.

Finally, if you're flying something unfamiliar, or you're inexperienced with radio comm and flying under ATC, it's a good idea to say so right from the start, because if you don't, people will assume you know what you're doing.


Nah Man. Even I do the ATC service sometimes at EDDF or EDDM and it does get busy but that is no reason to at least reply to the chat message of "awaiting further instructions" with a "roger" or "please wait" or something like that. A short reply can be very helpful from the ATC even if there is one or two radio users and all other chat users. And, for sure that is not the reason to neglect everyone. What I do is keep a book besides me and note down the important things of each user and give a short reply to them if it gets really busy. Also, I've asked ATCjomo, if it is a left heading 70 degrees and he never replied. Hence I thought it might have been a right heading 70 and input it into my A/P dialog box. Radio users or chat users, it doesn't matter. You need to be kind enough to reply to each user if they ask for further instructions. :)
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Re: Report on ATCjomo at EDDF

Postby Lydiot » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:45 pm

fg101 wrote in Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:09 pm:You need to be kind


best of luck
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Re: Report on ATCjomo at EDDF

Postby fg101 » Tue May 01, 2018 6:59 am

Lydiot wrote in Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:45 pm:
fg101 wrote in Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:09 pm:You need to be kind


best of luck


Thank you. But why best of luck ? :roll: :lol:
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Clive2670 » Tue May 01, 2018 7:06 am

Best of luck....Maybe getting jomo to entertain you next time and not ignore you!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby SVW » Tue May 01, 2018 7:54 am

If you're looking for friendly and super professional ATC service with hundreds of pilots and dozens of ATC: go VATSIM! FG MP is really wretched compared to VATSIM.

http://wiki.flightgear.org/SquawkGear

cheers
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Tue May 01, 2018 9:29 am

you're comparing apples to oranges again...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby SVW » Tue May 01, 2018 1:35 pm

nope, just comparing quality of ATCs ...
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Tue May 01, 2018 5:29 pm

like i said, apples and oranges...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Wecsje » Tue May 01, 2018 6:24 pm

More like comparing apples and rotten apples :D
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