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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:00 am

Is FGAddon the official hangar?
HTTPClient.cxx says, Aircrafts are downloaded from "http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/" FLIGHTGEAR_VERSION "/catalog.xml"

@Jomo, which version do you use?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:21 am

tikibar wrote in Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:05 pm:The 747-8F is available in the official hangar / fgaddon / whatever you want to call it. It is packaged together with the -8i. I'm not sure why it wouldn't show up. If you have the 747-8i from the official hangar, you have the 747-8F too.

Nice to hear from somebody who knows -- but sorry: I do not find the FGFS-pages "/ fgaddon" as you defined!
As I see it there are:
* https://www.flightgear.org/ I would call that the basic FGFS home-page
* https://www.flightgear.org/download/ for all FGFS downloads
* https://www.flightgear.org/download/download-aircraft/ to my knowledge the FGFS-official Aircraft libraries

in that one i do find a 747-8i -- but not a 747-8F - but only a 747-8f!
I guess it could be that most systems do differentiate between an 8i and 8I and 8F and 8f.
Thus I guess many of us might have difficulties in finding those 2 models - just based on those little differences.

Why not (as usual) name the master-folder "747-8" and put "747-8i" and "747-8f" into that (and watch Capital and normal letters !? Like e.g. the 777 is listed!)
Maybe then those problems disappear!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby lsalvan » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:56 am

Hi everyone

after reading these messages, i Wonder : what is the difference between these two libraries ?

http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft/
http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft-trunk/

Thanks

Laurent
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:11 am

lsalvan wrote in Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:56 am:Hi everyone
after reading these messages, i Wonder : what is the difference between these two libraries ?
http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft/
http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft-trunk/
Laurent

That is the big problem in internet: Everybody can open new Libraries with anything in it he wants. So I guess there are about 100 Libraries (or more) that are used by "Free designers"! That is why I restrict my ATC-Support to those in the https://www.flightgear.org/download/download-aircraft/
because a PC is stupid: It cannot display similar models (maybe with small "improvements") out of different libraries.

Then you might see the radar-signal in the movie but not the model!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby WoodSTokk » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:43 am

lsalvan wrote in Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:56 am:Hi everyone

after reading these messages, i Wonder : what is the difference between these two libraries ?

http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft/
http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft-trunk/

Thanks

Laurent

In the past, there was only one hangar. This leads into problems if a developer use a new feature of a new FG version.
If somebody use a older version of FG and install this aircraft, some systems won't work (because of lacking feature).
Therefor, the hangar is splitted into more parts. With every LTS version of FG, the hangar becomes a new directory.

Old lagacy versions: http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft/
FG version 2016.1+: http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft-2016.1/
FG version 2018.3+: http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft-2018/
FG version 2020.3+: http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft-2020/
FG developement: http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft-trunk/
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby lsalvan » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:24 am

ok thanks Woodstock.

My version is 2020.2.1; so when i install planes in FG, they come directly from the library "aircraft-2018"? If i donwload the planes from "2020" or "trunk", it won't work ?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby WoodSTokk » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:49 am

lsalvan wrote in Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:24 am:ok thanks Woodstock.

My version is 2020.2.1; so when i install planes in FG, they come directly from the library "aircraft-2018"? If i donwload the planes from "2020" or "trunk", it won't work ?

If the aircraft use a new feature that comes with 2020.3, then the system that make use this feature will not work in 2020.2.
This can be some systems that you dont need, but it can also be a important system and the aircraft becomes unusable.
This happens mostly on aircrafts that are under strong developement (like the A320).
You can try it. If it works then you are fine, if not, install the aircraft from aircraft-2018 or update FG.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:38 pm

benih wrote in Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:51 pm:Is that still maintained, or is the launcher sourcing downloads from fgaddon sf repo?

yes, the launcher uses the FG Hanger (aka FGAddon) by default... you might have to click a link in that section of the launcher to actually set the catalog, tho... you can also add 3rd party hangers if you have the link to their (properly built) catalog and packaged craft...

benih wrote in Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:51 pm:And how is the update process performed?

either timestamp or some checksum, IIRC... the actual update is simply downloading the complete archive for the craft and unarchiving it into the directory where the launcher maintains downloaded craft... this directory will be different than your private custom craft directory...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:40 pm

benih wrote in Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:00 am:Is FGAddon the official hangar?

yes...

benih wrote in Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:00 am:HTTPClient.cxx says, Aircrafts are downloaded from "http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/" FLIGHTGEAR_VERSION "/catalog.xml"

that is one of the FG Hanger mirrors... there are currently four in operation, IIRC...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby WoodSTokk » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:43 pm

jomo wrote in Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:21 am:
tikibar wrote in Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:05 pm:The 747-8F is available in the official hangar / fgaddon / whatever you want to call it. It is packaged together with the -8i. I'm not sure why it wouldn't show up. If you have the 747-8i from the official hangar, you have the 747-8F too.

Nice to hear from somebody who knows -- but sorry: I do not find the FGFS-pages "/ fgaddon" as you defined!
As I see it there are:
* https://www.flightgear.org/ I would call that the basic FGFS home-page
* https://www.flightgear.org/download/ for all FGFS downloads
* https://www.flightgear.org/download/download-aircraft/ to my knowledge the FGFS-official Aircraft libraries

in that one i do find a 747-8i -- but not a 747-8F - but only a 747-8f!
I guess it could be that most systems do differentiate between an 8i and 8I and 8F and 8f.
Thus I guess many of us might have difficulties in finding those 2 models - just based on those little differences.

Why not (as usual) name the master-folder "747-8" and put "747-8i" and "747-8f" into that (and watch Capital and normal letters !? Like e.g. the 777 is listed!)
Maybe then those problems disappear!


The 'master-folder' doesn't matter. The problem is that the developer worked on Windows and Windows isn't case-sensitve.
In the example of the 747-8i, as jomo pointed out, we find '747-8i-set.xml' and '747-8f-set.xml'.
If we open the file '747-8f-set.xml' and look under <sim> … <model> we find <path>Aircraft/747-8i/Models/747-8F.xml</path>
Exectly there is the problem! FG trasmit this model (747-8F) over the MP-protocol.
Now, FG from other users (like jomo and other pilots) receive '747-8F' and search for '747-8F-set.xml', but can't find it.
Its possible that it works under Windows, but Linux, Mac, BSD and so on are case-sensitve, also FG is case-sensitve.
Jomo is also on Ubuntu (Linux), so it won't work and there is nothing we can do to fix it.
Best way is the developer of the 747-8 fix the filenames and pay attention on the case-sensitveness in the future.
BTW: it should also be uppercase 'I' (not lowercass 'i').

EDIT:
there is one option for users under Linux and BSD (maybe also MacOS).
Go to the directory of the aircraft ('747-8i').
Make a symbolic link to the '747-8f-set.xml' and name it '747-8F-set.xml':
Code: Select all
ln -s 747-8f-set.xml 747-8F-set.xml

Not tested but should work.

This will not work under Windows! A link (symbolic or hard) under UNIX-like operating systems is competely different to links under Windows!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tikibar » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:58 pm

Seems to me if FG is sending the name of the model file (minus the '.xml', 747-8F, in this case) over MP, then on the receiving end it should be looking up the model file and not the the set file. If it does that, then as long as both instances of FG have the 747-8 package, it should be able to find it. That's how it worked in past versions. The most recent version I have is 2018.4.0, and I can see a 747-8F over MP with no problem in that version (see image). But if we're now sending one file name and using it to look up a different file, that's asking for errors, case-sensitivity or no. I've been working exclusively on Linux for years. This is not a case-sensitivity issue. It's a file reference issue.

Jomo, are you having trouble seeing the 747-8F in FlightGear itself or in the OpenRadar viewer?

Image
Boeing 747-8 (rename folder to 747-8i)
Boeing 757-200/300 (rename folder to 757-200)
Boeing 767-300/ER (rename folder to 767-300)
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:41 pm

tikibar wrote in Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:58 pm:Jomo, are you having trouble seeing the 747-8F in FlightGear itself or in the OpenRadar viewer?

Just to avoid discrepancies: OpenRadar has no special viewing for model-pictures - it only cares about radar data.

The viewing for the models is done by the FlightGear-model "ORCAM"! ORCAM was already used in times long prior OpenRadar!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby WoodSTokk » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:24 pm

tikibar wrote in Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:58 pm:Seems to me if FG is sending the name of the model file (minus the '.xml', 747-8F, in this case) over MP, then on the receiving end it should be looking up the model file and not the the set file. If it does that, then as long as both instances of FG have the 747-8 package, it should be able to find it. That's how it worked in past versions. The most recent version I have is 2018.4.0, and I can see a 747-8F over MP with no problem in that version (see image). But if we're now sending one file name and using it to look up a different file, that's asking for errors, case-sensitivity or no. I've been working exclusively on Linux for years. This is not a case-sensitivity issue. It's a file reference issue.

Jomo, are you having trouble seeing the 747-8F in FlightGear itself or in the OpenRadar viewer?


FG sent the path to the model over MP protocol '/sim/model/path', in this case it is set to 'Aircraft/747-8i/Models/747-8F.xml'.
Source: https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/flightgear/ci/next/tree/src/MultiPlayer/multiplaymgr.cxx#1223
The function starts at line 1223
Code: Select all
void FGMultiplayMgr::SendMyPosition(const FGExternalMotionData& motionInfo)

and here is the relevant line (1261):
Code: Select all
strncpy(PosMsg->Model, fgGetString("/sim/model/path"), MAX_MODEL_NAME_LEN);


The receiver try to find a set-file with this name, in this case FG will search for '747-8F-set.xml', but it fails because this file doesn't exist.
Source: https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/flightgear/ci/next/tree/src/MultiPlayer/multiplaymgr.cxx#2465
The function starts at line 2465
Code: Select all
FGAIMultiplayer* FGMultiplayMgr::addMultiplayer(const std::string& callsign, const std::string& modelName, const int fallback_model_index)

and the relevant part starts at line 2488 (with a nice comment).

All multiplayer server and also Open-Radar and ATCPie show this aircraft as '747-8F'. You can check it, start FG with multiplayer and look the model at http://mpmap02.flightgear.org/v3/. You will find a upercase 'F'. ORCAM is only a running FG and work exactly like every FG from other users.
The only difference is, that this instance of FG (ORCAM) receive the multiplayer packages from localhost and this is OpenRadar, but this doesn't matter.

Why is it working on your side? I dont know. Maybe you have a old variant everywhere in the search path of FG with a uppercase F,
or you are on Windows and it doesn't care about upper- and lowercase. Nobody knows.
You can test it with a fresh and empty $FG_HOME where you only download the 747-8i.

EDIT:
This behavior was changed on 2019-05-31!
This is the commit: https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/flightgear/ci/5772325bc6148e2acb738f2a7b125dbf04d1478b/
So it can be that your FG is older than this commit.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tikibar » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:12 pm

Thank you, WoodSTokk for pointing me to the relevant lines of code. I can now see where the problem is and why I don't experience it.

Like I said, I'm not running Windows. I'm running Linux. In fact I've never run FG on any operating system other than Ubuntu. So the issue isn't case-sensitivity. When I added the -8F to the 747-8i package (in 2013 or 2014, I think), I picked the filenames quite deliberately. 6 or 7 years on, I don't remember why I chose them the way I did, but at that time, and at least through version 2018.4.0 (which is what I'm currently running), FG sent sim/model/path through MP. It still does. That hasn't changed.

Up through at least version 2018.4.0, the receiving end would receive that same path and use it to find the model file and then load it. It was quite simple. If I sent 747-8F with a capital F, you received 747-8F with a capital F, and if we both got the 747-8 from the same place, your Flightgear would find the model file in Aircraft/747-8i/Models/747-8F.xml. There was no requirement to match the filenames in the -set.xml files with their model files. This is why I'm able to see the 747-8F over MP. I'm using an older version of FG.

The current behavior is different. Now, when I send the model path Aircraft/747-8i/Models/747-8F.xml, the receiver's FG goes looking around in the Aircraft/747-8i/ directory trying to find a -set.xml file. If it doesn't find one that has the same base filename, it gives up, instead of falling back on the model filename like it used to. So if the xxx-set.xml file and the Models/xxx.xml files don't have matching base filenames, you get a blue and gold glider over MP.

The fix for the 747-8F is simple, I change the case on one of the F's so that they're the same. I've already made the change and pushed it to FGADDON.

This set up could be problematic for other aircraft, though. For example, the 757 has five variants, each with their own -set files: 757-200-RB211-set.xml, 757-200-PW2040-set.xml, 757-300-set.xml, C-32A-set.xml, and C-32B-set.xml. The 757-300 and the C-32s have their own individual matching model files, but the 757-200-RB211 and 757-200-PW2040 both use the same model file, Models/757-200.xml, and the different engines are loaded based on the value of sim/model/variant (which is also transmitted over MP). So now, when FG sends Aircraft/757-200/Models/757-200.xml over MP, the model won't load on the receiving end because there is not a matching -set.xml file. For that case, I'm not too inclined to go adding model files and muddying up the file structure or the name that appears with the 757-200 on the MP map.
Boeing 747-8 (rename folder to 747-8i)
Boeing 757-200/300 (rename folder to 757-200)
Boeing 767-300/ER (rename folder to 767-300)
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby cgdae » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:55 pm

It's been a while since i wrote this code (which is part of the support for Multiplayer Views, for which we need to find the -set.xml file so that we know the offsets for Pilot View etc), but one point to make is that we don't actually rely on the -set.xml file having a similar name to the Model .xml file specified in the multiplayer packet.

Instead we take the multiplayer packet's Model name (e.g. Aircraft/747-8i/Models/747-8F) and look on our aircraft path to find the equivalent model file (e.g. fgaddon/Aircraft/747-8i/Models/747-8F.xml) from which we infer the model file's aircraft directory (in this case fgaddon/Aircraft/747-8i/), and then we look at all *-set.xml files in the top level of this aircraft directory until we find one that sets sim/model/path to the original Model .xml name (Aircraft/747-8i/Models/747-8F.xml in this example).

So in this example we should end up finding fgaddon/Aircraft/747-8i/747-8f-set.xml, regardless of any 'f' vs 'F' difference. And more generally everything should work as long as we find a matching local Model .xml file and there is a -set.xml file in the same aircraft directory with matching content.

So, i might have got myself confused, but as far as i can see the different 'f' vs 'F' should make no difference to whether we find the -set.xml file.

Thanks,

- Jules

[The inability to fall-back to just the Model .xml file, is a shame; it could probably be addressed, but would complicate some already-tricky code.]
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