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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:54 am

747-8i and 747-8F
Yesterday somebody visited EDDF with a 747-8F - which I could not display as model (only the radar-sign).
I just checked the FGFS-airplane Lib. and do only find 747-200 + 747-400 + 747-8i --> No 8F !!

Can anybody try to get the 8f into the FGFS-Lib so everybody (especially ATCs) can download? As I tried to explain before: I cannot support all the thousand of model libraries worldwide - but I promise to maintain on my PC all the ones wanted "available in FGFS-Lib" models.
sorry
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby mudrd8mz » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:09 pm

Hmm. Thanks - but I can't stop feeling even more confused now.

jomo wrote in Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:30 am:I do have a German "Radio-License for Aeronautics" as well as a "C-license for Gliders" as well as a "FAA-PrivatPilot" and hunderets of books about it


I have never meant this as questioning your ATC communication skills. Quite opposite really. I would personally prefer as much realism as possible, and I am happy to learn it as a virtual pilot.

what for do you need a RadioCheck???


Well ... to check that my mumble works ok and that you can hear it well? I understood it was standard initial phrase as per http://wiki.flightgear.org/ATC_phraseology#Clearance How shall I initiate the contact then? What shall I say on initial mumble contact? Especially given that "'ATC might be busy with 10 planes in area" as you say.

There is no difference between MPchat and Mumble communication


and

NoNoNo... The messages will always NEED 3 parts in the given sequence: Sender -- Target -- msg!


Right. You have repeatedly announced in the chat that "To All Airman: ... you do not need to type your UID" (I believe it is one of your pre-set messages). That's where I got that impression from. I understand now that it is meant as a time / typing saving exception.

(except that the Typist has a lot more and difficult work ( and forces the ATC to also work a lot more (what I hate!!))


Believe me typing is even worse with one hand holding the yoke and second hand on the throttle but we all try our best. Still, it is clear that using the chat is actually mandatory as you use it to give us instructions via pre-set messages etc. I have no problem with that. I just don't know how to combine it with mumble. That is why I asked if we shall read / type back chat instruction etc.

See in the movies the msg block at the left-lower corner!


Yes I know it. It is the same chat as we have in FGFS.

And definitely you will see/hear lots of talk between pilots


Aha, OK. I wasn't that lucky yet. Thanks.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:50 pm

@jomo; just to inform you.
I played around today with openradar to clarify the two issues we had:

1) Course/Compass was off ~5°
I calibrated my HSI prior to contacting you, and it was showing correct numbers. Either i really made a mistake here, or there was some unexpected drift somewhere. I regularly check against the magnetic compass, but that takes some time to stabilize after turns.
I think the instruments in the C182s work well, but especially after turns it takes some time to show correct numbers. I think that was it what got me off for 5 degrees. Especially it is not magnetic declination, and openradar seem to work fine.
Also, the Bendix KAP Autopilot takes some time to get the correct course.

2) Transponder: I tested it in several modes and it works. it even works in openradars "high realistic" mode :)
However i do know you don't use it at the triangle.

See you soon!

ps.: which c182s model do you use? i used a different blue livery that should, in theory, show my registration.
Maybe you want to try the newest git model?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:56 pm

mudrd8mz wrote in Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:09 pm:Hmm. Thanks - but I can't stop feeling even more confused now.

As I tried to explain befor: The single ATC for all actions (Approach, Landing, Taxiing, Parking, Flightplanning, etc. etc.) is a lot of work, as well work as concentration as remembering who's status is what, etc.! e.g. Why do you need an extra RadioCheck - your first contact should tell if it works or not? Again: I am busy .. If you really want to go by the books I suggest to go into a real Flight-School - they surely will be glad to teach and explain you every single step in every different country and/or Type (Miitary, Sea, Northpole, Deserts, ...etc.) and for all different airplanes (e.g. 747 transatlantic, private-pilots, gliders etc.) I do not have that much time.
SORRY! I still hope the movies can teach and train what is needed! See http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/films.html
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby mudrd8mz » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:18 pm

That was not my point at all but anyway. Thanks.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby legoboyvdlp » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:21 pm

jomo wrote in Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:54 am:747-8i and 747-8F
Can anybody try to get the 8f into the FGFS-Lib


For a start what is the FGFS-lib?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Johan G » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:18 pm

My guess is FGAddon/trunk/Aircraft.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby WoodSTokk » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:22 pm

mudrd8mz wrote in Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:18 pm:That was not my point at all but anyway. Thanks.


Question 1:
Normally, your initial call should include:
- who you are
- where you are
- your intention
As example you are approaching Frankfurt from west and want land there,
your initial call will be: "Frankfurt Tower, Cessna Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor, 80 miles west, 8000ft, inbound"
With this information the ATC know who you are, where he/she can find you on the radarscope and that you come in for landing.
If you also include the type (in this example 'Cessna'), the ATC have a feeling what your aircraft can or can not handle.
The ATC calls you back if the radio (mumble) is working.
If not, wait 10 seconds, or mayby 20. If you receive no response, take a second attempt.
If the second attempt fails also, try the chat.

Question 2:
Its depend from the context. Normally the ATC will call you to give new instructions.
That means that your call is in response to the ATC request so it is clear that you talk to the ATC.
In this case you can skip the receiver callsign:
ATC: "Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor, descent and maintain 4000, direct Charly and report Charly"
Pilot: "descent 4000, direct and report Charly, Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor"
No need to say 'Frankfurt Tower' because your response comes immediately after the request. This shorten the call and save time.
A differend case is, if you initiate a new convertation.
Pilot: "Frankfurt Tower, Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor, approaching Charly on 4000"
ATC: "Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor, turn right 150, descent and maintain 3000"
Pilot: "right 150, descent 3000, Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor"
As you can see, the pilot skip 'turn' and 'maintain', he/she says only the important information 'direction and heading' and 'direction and altitude'.
It is clear that you reach your heading with a turn, so only the direction is important.
It is also clear that you should hold the altitude if you reach it, so no need to say 'maintain'.

Question 3:
You initiate a conversation, say the receiver first.
Pilot: "Frankfurt Tower, Cessna Oscar Kilo Delta Alfa Victor, at slot B4, ready to taxi"

Question 4:
There is no rule if your say your callsign at the beginning or the end.
But there is a worldwide law:
- every radio transmition must contain the callsign
- take the trasmition more then 20 minutes, the callsign must be pronounced at least all 20 minutes
The second line have no meaning in aviation because the transmitions takes only few seconds, but this point out why broadcast radio stations or TV stations call (or show) the callsign at least all 20minutes.
So, its on you when you say your callsign.
Common practise:
- a request call has the callsign at the beginning (receiver callsign, your callsign, intention or information)
- a response call has the callsign at the end (response and read back, your callsign)
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:57 pm

benih wrote in Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:50 pm:@jomo; just to inform you.

ps.: which c182s model do you use? i used a different blue livery that should, in theory, show my registration.
Maybe you want to try the newest git model?

Well right now I do not fly a lot - and if then I mostly take the Concorde.

And sorry: I do not like to fetch models out of different Libraries, because there are many Libraries with many many different versions of same/different plans with same or different names. I see no other way to support unique models in different libraries. You should talk to the developper of your model to xfer it into the basic FGFS https://www.flightgear.org/download/download-aircraft/ collection.

Sorry - I see no other way to support models that come from different libraries
sorry jomo!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:03 pm

legoboyvdlp wrote in Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:21 pm:
jomo wrote in Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:54 am:747-8i and 747-8F
For a start what is the FGFS-lib?

The FlightGearFlightSimulator library in which approved Models are available:
-->> https://www.flightgear.org/download/download-aircraft/
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:56 pm

why not just use the existing terminology? Flightgear Hanger...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Johan G » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:20 pm

Why would we ask users to be more consistent than we are?

Does the aircraft download page of the official website say anything like FlightGear hangar? No it does not (but sort of implies it as it mentions "3rd party hangars"). Does the launcher do that? No it does not. Do the getstart.pdf? No it does not (it seem to not even contain the word "hangar").

To pick up terms like "FlightGear hangar", "the official hangar" or "FGAddon hangar" (three names used interchangeably for pretty much the same thing) you would have to spend some time on the forum, wiki or mailing list.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:26 pm

that's crazy! :lol:

but yeah, i get your point... it should be consistent everywhere so as to avoid confusion...

FWIW: i do note that in the Addons section of the launcher, it does specifically say "hangers"...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:51 pm

Is that still maintained, or is the launcher sourcing downloads from fgaddon sf repo?

And how is the update process performed?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tikibar » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:05 pm

The 747-8F is available in the official hangar / fgaddon / whatever you want to call it. It is packaged together with the -8i. I'm not sure why it wouldn't show up. If you have the 747-8i from the official hangar, you have the 747-8F too.
Boeing 747-8 (rename folder to 747-8i)
Boeing 757-200/300 (rename folder to 757-200)
Boeing 767-300/ER (rename folder to 767-300)
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