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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:53 pm

If you configure things via the Route Manager dialog, most airliner will happily follow SIDs and STARs. All of the following should be fine:

- A320 (the ex-IDG one)
- 737-800YV
- 747-8i (though the LNAV is currently broken in fgaddon)
- CRJ700-family (from github, I have no idea what's in fgaddon right now)
- 777

In fact, I can even fly RNAV routes with the DHC-6, by coupling NAV1 to the GPS - not very realistic, but it works fine.

The biggest issue is getting your hands on up-to-date FMS data; if you don't want to shell out for navigraph, and don't want to enter everything manually yourself, then one remaining option is to use skyvector; FG can read the the .gpx export format just fine, and it will include all the waypoints from any SIDs and STARs you used for the routing (though they won't appear as such in the flight plan). Of course this means that you need to anticipate way ahead of time what STAR and transition you will be given.

And of course there is a learning curve to it; flying a heading and an altitude is going to be easier for someone who is in over their head than managing your aircraft while also programming FMS and talking to ATC.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Ovazor » Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:26 pm

Hi Jomo,

I think that this is the original for the DC-3 I am using


http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/f ... as-Dc3.zip
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby LH-1701 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:53 am

Hi,

i made most of the SID/STARs/TRANSITIONS for EDDF and other Airports now by myself, saved them in procedures.xml and you are right - i can use them in FDM. Nice ;)
I have also some (outdated) versions for other airports.

Thanks for the hint with skyvector, i'll try it - or buy and convert the Navigraph ones.

reguards,

tobias
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:43 am

Hi Tobias,

Where do you have procedures.xml? I can't find it!

saved them in procedures.xml and you are right




Thanks
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:50 am

Hi Jomo,


So the route I took was part OBOKA 1L to XAMUB then I intercepted the route SOBRA 1L between ROSIG and DONAB,
I know this isn't correct but what I understood from you is the route turns right before RID, SOBRA 1L (Or in your case SOBRA 4L) ( Which is the the same route according to the film) Anyway my bad, AGAIN.
Also, according to
https://vatsim-germany.org/pilots/aerodromes/EDDF
the SID is SOBRA 1L and I don't see a SOBRA 4L and this is not my BAD!!!!


Anyway, there was no traffic so no harm done but in real life I might have gotten fired!!!



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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:35 am

AAL545 wrote in Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:50 am:Also, according to
https://vatsim-germany.org/pilots/aerodromes/EDDF
the SID is SOBRA 1L and I don't see a SOBRA 4L and this is not my BAD!!!!
AAL4955

You are right: It is "SOBRA-1L"
Sorry - must have been "SOBRA-4L" in former times - I overlooked it when I updated the radar-picture. I corrected it now!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby LH-1701 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:15 am

Hi,

@AAL545/Jomo: The number for some SID/STARs started from 1 again, thats why its SOBRA1L

@AAL545: I need to have a look for the exact path.

reguards,

Tobias EX LH-1701 now GEC1701
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby LH-1701 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:18 pm

Hi Jomo,

maybe one idea as addition.

Your approaches are nearly identical to the "Zulu"-Approaches for RW07/25.

https://nav.vatsim-germany.org/files/ed ... RWY25L.pdf

(I think you took these approaches, correct?)

I am aware, that there are many pilots which dont know what a Yankee/Zulu approach mean, but if a pilot is aware of the meaning,
you can make your and pilots life more easy when clear the pilot for the complete approach path from RID/TAU or CHA/MTR. In this case you don't need to tell the pilot which heading or altitude to use, you just need to clear him/her once for the approach and later for the landing.

reguards,

Tobias
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:16 pm

Hi Tobias,


Regarding the SID's I found this link
http://wiki.flightgear.org/Howto:Adding_procedures_to_the_route_manage

and I downloaded SID/ STAR'S from the link inside the wiki.flightgear page
,
you might have done the same nor sure.
The way I do it is generate a route using Skyvector and then upload the .gpx file into /fgfs/Export which once that is done it's the same result, one thing to be careful though is one wrong click of the button and FG is frozen!!
I noticed there are two locations that have this built in already, LFRB and LSGG.
The .xml files I downloaded are old for EDDF, the starting routes are pretty close I think but the exit points aren't correct and they need to be renamed.
Anyway I like this option but I'll have to be careful when using old files.

Oh, forgot to mention I found where the procedure.xml files are located. Now I have some work to do!!! Ha Ha



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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:45 am

SID / STARs and similar
I see the EDDF-Triangle happenings as a step between 3 Categories:

1. Just fooling around with jets and the biggest airliners
    * for many: Just to show everybody what a big shot they are - even knowing no rules nor limits!
    * I myself rather fly with a C172 thru the Alps and experience how to handle a plane in extreme situations (see e.g.
    "http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/Alp-flying.pdf" - (yes: I do have a REAL glider-licenses and also a Private Pilot license).
2. Flying controlled together with others - with only minimum knowledge and only basic rules - easy to learn and use for everybody.

3. Flying like real pilots - and training and learn like those! And that is a big-big lot of learning procedures etc. etc...

I see the EDDF-Triangle like item 2: Something everybody can learn -- BUT: Only a minimum that is needed and easiest to handle! No competition to VATSIM! Thus I see SID/STARS as the easiest to use standard routes! Of course there are many many procedures for many different aspects -- but I guess 1 type is enough (as well for the "want to be pilots" as also for the "want to be ATCs"). See the above 3 definitions like:
1 = prior any schooling
2 = primary school
3 = high school

A little difficult is, that those SID/STARSs may change from time to time and every poor human being may make errors when updating the implemented charts. Sorry: But that's life.

Thus I see the SID/STARs as much easier to learn (and implement!) as e.g. IAC and similar - which are much more detailed BUT only available for the final approach. The SID/STARs are much easier to handle standard approaches from far out till landing - they also make life a lot easier for ATCs controlling a mix of pilots with and without visual approaches!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:30 pm

Jomo,


My two cents if I may.

I understand your point, "FG is good for learning and pretty good aircraft and scenery"
My situation is this, because of the nature of FG not strict with instructions on SID's & STAR's and not having either updated, we can have a few situations.
(My story) I was departing one of my favorite airports in Spain 3 or 4 months ago and the ATC just popped up which is fine, he instructed me to depart on a SID, now all of a sudden I'm scrambling for charts to find the SID but anyone who has any experience knows this doesn't work, you need to study your SID chart, I gave up and said lets do Vectors which was okay.

Tobias is way ahead of me on this, but my point is this, with having the SID's & STAR's in the drop down menu in route manager at least I have the option to use them if need be with a click of the button, if either is outdated no big deal as long as the pilot is watching for traffic then he or she takes action, after all this is a SIM!! (A GREAT SIM)

Will keep flying!!


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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby LH-1701 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:12 pm

Hi,

@aal545: i think i have the same Problem.
For some of my favourite airports (EDDF, LOWi,GCTS ...) i have mostly update procedures so i can easily pick them up by using Route planner or FMC.
For all other airports i am using outdated files or do a flight planning with external tools like sky vector.
So whenever i have to switch SID or STAR in flight for these airports i ran also into problems :)

@jomo: we should continue with the Sid/stars.
What i mean is just an addition:
Usually you guide the people to VOR cha,mtr,tau rid first and then manually from a VOR (eg CHA) via vectors to ILS. So you have to tell them which altitude and heading to use and to manually guide them.
My suggestion is now: the ILS approaches from the charts contain all the information a pilot needs to get estab on ILS from VOR cha,rid,mtr,tau. So -if a pilot is able to read the chart and make the approach correctly- you can clear the Pilot for the whole approach from a VOR. This reduces the number of clearances and advises needed from your side and it reduces problems/requests when advises are late e.g. in busy times. It also reduces neccessary communication.

For example from CHA

Manual
-advise to cont radial 332
-advise to desc 3000
-advise to turn left 280
-clear for ILS
-report when ILS estab
-clear to land

ILS zulu
-clearance for ILS zulu approach from cha
-report when ILS estab
-clear to land

Practically :) also all the stars ends up on one of these VORs so if you like to you can also clear a pilot for a STAR and the approach with a single phrase like "GEC1701, welcome. Expect RW 25L, KERAX2B and ILS zulu approach."

Reguards

Tobias
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:54 am

Well Tobias I can't argue what you are trying to accomplish, I myself need/ want to raise the bar slowly but surely (as time and skills allow).
But I'm not sure how ATC's on FG will do this based on what I have experienced here, not being negative here but for example; Jomo needs to ask can you use ILS and or VOR? (I have been at this stage myself so not being critical)
Forgive me if I missed it (I had a bad day sorry) but how will Jomo and other ATC's handle to two types of experienced pilots?

Let me explain it this way, in real life I'm thinking there is a standard procedure for approach or departure for a certain airport (not all the same worldwide) now what will happen here if we mix two procedures,
AAL4955 approaching via a STAR and another via Vectors, now the ATC has to make sure the two don't cross paths!

I like this discussion and the direction here so hopefully we can continue with both.


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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:30 am

Well spoken -- BUT: Any idea how many of the visitors at EDDF are able to use SID/STARs? And/or even other approaches?
Quit frankly that are not much!!
And how does an ATC know who is capable of using this or that?
And for sure my priority is to get as many visitors as possible (independent of how high the skill is!).

How about doing it like GEC(O)1701 is doing it: If he wants to use this or that he just asks for it! ?!?!
Thus he prefers to follow SID from north going KERAX PSA CHA ..RW25L instead my Standard "direct CHA .. 25L". That is nice for me -
giving me lots of time to care about others - BUT: How many of the visitors want to do that? And how do I know ?

As long as we do not get as much traffic as the real EDDF I guess that should be possible!
How about that?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:35 pm

AAL545 wrote in Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:54 am:Let me explain it this way, in real life I'm thinking there is a standard procedure for approach or departure for a certain airport (not all the same worldwide) now what will happen here if we mix two procedures,
AAL4955 approaching via a STAR and another via Vectors, now the ATC has to make sure the two don't cross paths!


It happens all the time. Often, there are separate procedures depending on aircraft performance class and/or available NAV equipment, and ATC and pilots will negotiate appropriate ones as needed. For example, you might have a commercial airliner and a private GA aircraft incoming at the same time, where the airliner has full RNAV/GPS capabilities, while the GA aircraft may only be able to do VOR/DME. The controller may also want the GA aircraft to fly a shorter approach in order to avoid blocking the final approach sector for too long, so they might give the airliner an RNAV transition to fly, and instruct the GA aircraft to fly a VOR/DME approach, and then start vectoring the GA aircraft around the jet for better spacing at some point.

Likewise, even when all approaching aircraft fly the same RNAV transition, ATC will still often override the procedure (either by vectoring them entirely, or by giving them directs) in order to improve spacing. (This, btw., is why many RNAV transitions follow an "S"-shaped pattern).
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