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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Ernest1984 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:13 am

OK nevermind, anyways strange behavior of the guy at ATC who instead of ATC me, was sending me to another airport to not to interrupt the so called "training" :D
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AJC » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:59 am

Ernest1984 wrote in Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:13 am:OK nevermind, anyways strange behavior of the guy at ATC who instead of ATC me, was sending me to another airport to not to interrupt the so called "training" :D

Generally if an ATC tells you to leave the airport due to 'uncontrolled flying', he means he is ATC at an airport and you are either not cooperating with the ATC or simply blocking traffic, creating a nusiance of yourself or irritating the ATC. If you are not using the multiplayer capability through ATC, you should either de-select 'Multiplayer' in the launch of your flightgear or startup at a different airport not under control of an ATC.

People spend alot of time doing ATC at airports often with very little traffic and whilst we stride to offer an ATC experience to flightgear and it's pilots including beginners. We appreciate some pilots just want to fly and they can, by not going onto multiplayer or using another airport. Unfortunately, some pilots will still create a problem, this possibly relates to you? I'm guessing the ATC did try to co-operate with you first as a beginner?


Is it THAT hard? Really? :roll:
Last edited by AJC on Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Icecode GL » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:41 am

It isn't HARD. Most of the pilots that disturbe in a controlled area don't know where they are, what is happening there, and why there is an ATCer there. They are just beginners. The other little part are... trolls... But the other mayority just want to have fun. They start on runway because they simply don't know how to start on parking or they think that it doesn't matter if they do that.

One of the first times I went to EDDF... well, I wasn't really well recieved. One of my first thoughts was "I won't come again here since I won't learn anything, I won't enjoy anything and this is just wasting time". So my suggestion is being more gentle with the beginners. What we want is to get more pilots and train them, not to send them back to KSFO! And since this is a simulator, it doesn't matter if someone goes throw another. It isn't real, but we must understand that they really didn't want to annoy anyone.

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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AJC » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:03 pm

Whilst i have no problem with beginners and do welcome them, they do need at least to understand we are not being 'mean' asking them to move but if they don't move they do disturb ATC and other pilots. The vast majority of my uncontrolled flying messages are to people who don't care and will continue with their business ruining other peoples enjoyment of ATC. I'm not quite sure under what context 'Ernest' was told to leave so i can only guess but at the end of the day, ALL pilots have the ability to practise offline and fly online and should have the brains to be able to see that something is going on.

Admittedly i find the notes to vacate runway a little harsh but the majority of the time, it does the job....

I reitterate i am happy to accept beginners who are willing to learn but NOT people here to waste ATC's time through neglecting ATC completely. If you can't fly your plane and use multiplayer, maybe you should be at KSFO?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Ernest1984 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:42 am

AJC wrote in Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:59 am:
Ernest1984 wrote in Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:13 am:OK nevermind, anyways strange behavior of the guy at ATC who instead of ATC me, was sending me to another airport to not to interrupt the so called "training" :D

Generally if an ATC tells you to leave the airport due to 'uncontrolled flying', he means he is ATC at an airport and you are either not cooperating with the ATC or simply blocking traffic, creating a nusiance of yourself or irritating the ATC. If you are not using the multiplayer capability through ATC, you should either de-select 'Multiplayer' in the launch of your flightgear or startup at a different airport not under control of an ATC.

People spend alot of time doing ATC at airports often with very little traffic and whilst we stride to offer an ATC experience to flightgear and it's pilots including beginners. We appreciate some pilots just want to fly and they can, by not going onto multiplayer or using another airport. Unfortunately, some pilots will still create a problem, this possibly relates to you? I'm guessing the ATC did try to co-operate with you first as a beginner?


Is it THAT hard? Really? :roll:


If you're sitting in the tower do the ATC, instead of getting rid of people. Is it THAT HARD??
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AJC » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:23 pm

Ernest1984 wrote in Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:42 am:
If you're sitting in the tower do the ATC, instead of getting rid of people. Is it THAT HARD??

Well, when ignorant pilots block runways it is distracting for the other pilots in the simulation. But if that is what you would like to do, do not expect ATC support. Ever.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Ernest1984 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:43 pm

Besides from that, i was flying to EDDF and when i entered the EDDF ATC zone, i was pleased to "change the airport and not interrupt the trainings" :D
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AJC » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:48 pm

Ernest1984 wrote in Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:43 pm:Besides from that, i was flying to EDDF and when i entered the EDDF ATC zone, i was pleased to "change the airport and not interrupt the trainings" :D

Look i am unsure quite what your situation is and do not wish to take this into a further argument. EDDF is usually under control of an ATC who would only give such a 'pleasing' if there was good reason. I am simply stating the problem with pilots in general who choose not only to neglect ATC but clearly disrupt the service being provided. If i am making an example of you wrongly i apologise but if, as i suspect, you were disrupting ATC, I see my points were well made. Despite this i would encourage you to use the ATC service again and if you are unsure, ask the ATC to help you. By not communicating a problem and simply assuming the ATC is 'stupid', you only ruin your own simulation.
Regards,
AJC :mrgreen:
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby dash » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:07 pm

Today was AWESOME!! Had real good fun at ELLX! Thanks ELLX and ELLX Twr!

-Dash
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby D-79 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:52 am

Hi jomo,

thanks for the ATC fun at EDDF yesterday evening. That was good as always.

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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby clrCoda » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:27 am

AJC wrote in Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:59 am:Generally if an ATC tells you to leave the airport due to 'uncontrolled flying', he means he is ATC at an airport and you are either not cooperating with the ATC or simply blocking traffic, creating a nusiance of yourself or irritating the ATC. If you are not using the multiplayer capability through ATC, you should either de-select 'Multiplayer' in the launch of your flightgear or startup at a different airport not under control of an ATC.

People spend alot of time doing ATC at airports often with very little traffic and whilst we stride to offer an ATC experience to flightgear and it's pilots including beginners. We appreciate some pilots just want to fly and they can, by not going onto multiplayer or using another airport. Unfortunately, some pilots will still create a problem, this possibly relates to you? I'm guessing the ATC did try to co-operate with you first as a beginner?


Is it THAT hard? Really? :roll:


This is completely erroneous thinking. Anyone is free to fly anywhere in multiplayer anytime they want.

ATC's need to consider the FREEDOM statement. Pilots are free to ignore ATC in flightGear. The way the system is set up, any pilot can do anything anywhere anytime and not feel that they have to be bullied by anyone, even if that anyone claims to be "in control" of an airport.

There are systems available with more "controls" offered. I allude to VatSim, and others. If ATC's want to actually exercise some form of exclusive control of an airport, let them work in VatSim.

Otherwise, ATC's will have to just put up with the intentions of other pilots in the world just like the rest of us. Shame as that might be.

I for one enjoy using a competent ATC's instructions. I also do not feel that I should be subject to an ATC that does not demonstrate competence. We get those too. I don't mind helping an ATC learn their job. Training goes both ways.

The best way that ATC's can act in the presence of someone being uncooperative is to recognize that an uncooperative pilot has as much right to "be there" as everyone else, and just ignore anyone that might be considered disruptive. ATC's will not gain any respect by being disrespectful to pilots that have as much right as ATC's do. You may find that you get more respect ignoring disruptive behaviors, and by not chastising or otherwise disrespecting someone with full usage rights, may leave a door open to allow a previously considered disruptive pilot the opportunity to feel like they can join in the training, eventually.

YMMV
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AJC » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:36 pm

Look, I DONT CARE.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:00 pm

clrCoda wrote in Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:27 am:This is completely erroneous thinking. Anyone is free to fly anywhere in multiplayer anytime they want.

ATC's need to consider the FREEDOM statement. Pilots are free to ignore ATC in flightGear. The way the system is set up, any pilot can do anything anywhere anytime and not feel that they have to be bullied by anyone, even if that anyone claims to be "in control" of an airport.
ATC's will not gain any respect by being disrespectful to pilots that have as much right as ATC's do. You may find that you get more respect ignoring disruptive behaviors, and by not chastising or otherwise disrespecting someone with full usage rights, may leave a door open to allow a previously considered disruptive pilot the opportunity to feel like they can join in the training, eventually.

YMMV
Ray


Ray
I am not in the habit to comment comments of others to others - but this thread was opened by me - so I guess i should state my view to this problem, that seems to develop to such a big issue for some people!

If I just would have any idea why!

In my "non English" tongue, "multi-player" means that several people meet to do something together, may it be
just "being open" for being contacted by others
or even meet to do something together
or to try to show off
or just being tracked on MPmap
or.., or.. , or.., or..

Here we are in a thread that was opened by me to announce the possibility for Multi-players to meet at a distinct time and place to exercise ATC i.e. "Controlled Flying". And announcing events and meetings for those is certainly something that is in the sense of "multi-player". This thread is inside a Forum explicitly for such events. I guess in so far there is no dispute between anyone. (And the growing crowed that joins into the event seems to indicate that many people like it!)

The dispute seems to be the "FREEDOM statement" - BUT please consider that the definition of "FREEDOM" is very difficult - because theoretically nobody is totally free (at least you are forced to breath, to eat, to step by side if a stronger guy then you gets along, you need a compromise if your wife (or kids) shout at you, etc.). The best definition I know for "FREEDOM" is: You are free to do whatever You want - as long as you do not interfere with the "FREEDOM" of others. If that happens you do not need "FREEDOM" but "COMPROMISE"!

Now we obviously have two groups insisting on something that does not match:
On the one side there is the group that meets for these events with ATC's. I do not know if you ever tried it - but there is no smooth cooperation possible, if 10 planes are in the air lining up for TakeOff and/or Approach etc. - and in between some guys that absolutely reject any cooperation - they just insist on doing whatever they just want to do!

If you know any practical way on how to handle that so that everybody is satisfied - please tell me!
According to my experiences that is not possible!

So we either can find a compromise - or there will be "dissatisfaction" on BOTH sides. And I do not know if you ever attended one of our events: Some words of our "event-participants" (I hope none from the ATC'S) are not really nice - but even worse are some of the words of some of the "lonely fighters for FREEDOM". I am usually successful by begging the event-participants to stop and just NEGLECT!

And that is what I do not understand in your writing: There is no way in FlightGear to exclude anybody from anything he wants to do - You may have seen some discussions about "how to stop insults and/or words forbidden by law!". I personally always expressed my opinion, that we should not put locks onto FlightGear - we must be strong enough to endure some insulting individuals - and we handle even those best by just "IGNORING" them.

So from my side those "lonely fighters" will be asked "you disturb us - please fly somewhere else" and if they do not respond to that, I ask all participants to NEGLECT those, who disturb the group! You stated the "FREEDOM fighter's" have that right - that means also the group has it! That is a wonderful new possibility in FlightGear! It enables the "FREEDOM fighters" to do what they want - without disturbing the group!

So Again: Where is the problem?
(In my believe the problem is not that they cannot do what they want - because they can! The problem is that they get neglected by the group! But sorry: Why shouldn't the group have the right to do that?)

But I very definitely do not support words like "Look, I DONT CARE.!" from an ATC ( but also he has his FREEDOM - what can I do?).

And very surely: In my event all the "NEGLECTED" people are always free to join into the event (i.e. the next meeting) - and I know of many who did exactly that (after being neglected even several times!) - and enjoy it now very much.

I hope you do enjoy it too (some time to come)!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AJC » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:46 pm

I apologise for my very strong use of words earlier. I will only justify it by the bad day i have had which is at the end of the day, not a good enough excuse and coming home to yet another at the time something i viewed in the first paragraph as a 'rant' didn't do well to the rest of my day :L

I must just say I completley disagree that ATC's should have to use only VATSIM to be an ATC. I am an ATC because i want to give people the same experience I had with Jomo a few months ago. Whilst these people are 'free' to be there, It would be nice if they would pay some respect to the majority who really would like to experience the ATC service on a free flight simulator!! At the end of the day, it is a unique experience and one few people are able to do. I do not have any real links to VATSIM but i am now a better ATC than most of them thanks to Flightgear.

I hope you will accept my apologies and use the Frankfurt service in the future,
kind regards,
AJC
Last edited by AJC on Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby clrCoda » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:51 pm

Hi Joe, :)
It looks to me like we are arguing the same side of the issue. I suppose my only point in such discussions, recently, is that we all need to recognize that "some will, some won't, so what?"

What I mean by that is, there really is no reason to be offended, or to offend, anyone that might like to use multiplayer in any way.

No one knows the history of the bulling that I have to and have had to put up with using multiplayer. And I don't make much of an issue about it. Bulling speaks more about the bully than the person being bullied. Little minds do little things.

I had hoped that my words above would make sense to sensible people.

I for one appreciate having ATC's to work with when I happen to have a schedule that puts me in those situations.

What I can not like is people trying to restrict the enjoyment of others that might like to use an airport and have pilots or ATC's bully pilots that just want to be left alone. This is not too much to ask, easy to determine, and simple to ignore. I suppose it is the reason the FGFounder made planes "fly-through-able".

Yes there will be children who look at the simulator like a game. When someone first figures out that it is not an easy thing to do, to fly like a real plane, then they get bored and they mess with others that look like they know what they are doing. This much I know. It continues to happen to me all of the time. But I ignore it. I have no choice in the matter. I try to make friends with that pilot if they will make friends, and I leave them alone of they won't. But that's just me, I guess.

I had hoped that it would be obvious that there will be people that will not cooperate no matter what one says. I had hoped we would all see this point. Freedom in this multiplayer means "unrestricted usage".

I suppose I had thought that ATC's would be most sensitive to this fact and that they would just deal with the situations as they come and not be offended even by offensive pilots. Those disruptive people don't really disrupt anything real.

For if they did, we could have a true ignore feature. For if they did, we could have registration and lOGIN. We could be more like VatSim.

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