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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:13 pm

That was quick, thanks! So the stock DHC-6 works fine, but the newer one doesn't.

So I did some more digging, and found that the latest version of the DHC-6 causes FG 2018 to dump warnings to the console:

Code: Select all
Multiplayer packet truncated prop id: 11990: sim/multiplay/mp-clock-mode


Hmm, curious. So I went in and looked for that message in the codebase. I also tested several Twin Otters to see which one started causing these errors. And here's what I found.

- Up until (and including) FGDATA version 2016.1, the Twin Otter sent a total of 76 properties, 17 of them in the "generic" subtree that also contains the blunt nose one.
- Starting with 2016.2, the total number of properties sent increases to 98, 40 of them "generic".
- There are two versions of the multiplayer protocol in current use, 1.0 and 1.2. The 1.0 version has a hard limit on the maximum packet size, and any properties that you try to send beyond that limit are dropped. The 1.2 version is a backwards-compatible extension; it sends the first packet just like 1.0, but then it puts additional properties into as many additional packets as it needs, tagging those packets with a "magic" value that causes 1.0 clients to ignore the packet, while 1.2 clients will read the additional properties. As a result, clients capable of processing the full 1.2 protocol will receive all the properties, while older clients will only get the properties that fit in the first packet.
- The order of user-defined properties is "strings, floats, integers". Unfortunately, the blunt-nose property is an integer, so it is very likely to end up in the second packet.

So if we put all this together, it is fairly clear what's happening:

- The old (2016.1 and earlier) Twin Otter, as shipped with my old machine's FG installation, works fine across everything, because everything fits into one packet.
- The new (2016.2 and later) Twin Otter works fine as long as both clients support the 1.2 protocol, but if the recipient only supports 1.0, then the second packet, the one that contains the blunt-nose property, will not be seen, and the nose will not appear.

If this is the case, then that would mean that the "Jomo FG" is a version that supports only the 1.0 protocol, while both my machines support 1.2.

We can easily verify this; if you visit EDDF now, my DHC-6 parked at V174 is now the most recent version, but with nearly all custom properties removed from the MP property list. You won't be able to see the chocks, tie-downs, control surface positions, etc., and the doors won't open; but the nose should be there. Happy to hear from anyone how that works out.

This is not a proper fix of course, because we really do want all those things to also work.

The proper fix would be:

1. Upgrade all clients to an FG version that supports the new MP protocol (not sure which one that is though).
2. Fix the DHC-6 model such that when the property is missing, it will default to the blunt nose instead of no nose at all.

I will come up with a commit for #2 on my github repo ASAP, it's not difficult.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:32 pm

Alright, I've got a version up on https://github.com/tdammers/dhc6 that should deal with the blunt-nose property more gracefully. If the property isn't received, it may still show the wrong nose, but it will always show *a* nose. Would love to see this tested (ping me if you can't figure out how to install from github).
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby V12 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:43 pm

Thanx for explanation. Now, I'm on the route to EDDF, 4300 nm to go, ETA 1830Z. I have FG2018.1.1, I'm curious...
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:22 pm

and pls notice that I did NOT change my system since many month - pls do not say I did!!!


I was implying that I changed my system, I am not switching back to Ubuntu 16.04 just to do some tests therefore I'll have to figure it out with Linux Mint.
As far as Aircraft I have tried from all available sources so I'm out of options and as far as what OS I don't think that's the issue unless of course they are all on Linux Mint but what's the chance of that?
Note; will delete all B-777 aircraft on my pc including zip files and will try again, if no luck I'll delete and try another.
To make things simple based on my knowledge of how all of this works (to see the same model aircraft) , like I said I'll try one aircraft at a time.
Also I'll let Jomo know what model/livery and installed from where.

Question; do you guys think there is a difference where the aircraft is installed on my pc?
I just remembered that on my Ubuntu 16.04 I installed the aircraft directly into the root FG program using Nautilus ( Linux file manager) /usr/share/games/flightgear/Aircraft/
and lately I'm using the Add-ons option pointing to where the aircraft is installed in the home directory.
I don't like using Nautilus because you can make a mess of the root file system if I'm not careful.
Any suggestions???

FG 2018.1.1
Linux Mint 18.3

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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby V12 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:37 pm

On Ubuntu 14.04, 17.04, 17.10 and 18.04 aircrafts are installed in /home/usrname/.fgfs/Aircraft/org.flightgear.fgaddon Folder is hidden, use filemanager with option "Show hidden files" and You will see that folder.
BTW, install folder is not matters of Ubuntu versiuon, but Flightgear version, 20017.x.x and 2018.1.1 are same as described.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:47 pm

V12 wrote in Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:43 pm:Thanx for explanation. Now, I'm on the route to EDDF, 4300 nm to go, ETA 1830Z. I have FG2018.1.1, I'm curious...


Alright, I'll leave the two twotters at EDDF a while longer then. I believe that on 2018.1.1, you should see them both correctly though. There should be a blue one with a stretched nose towards taxiway L, and a yellow "firefighter" one with a blunt nose behind it.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:29 pm

There should be a blue one with a stretched nose towards taxiway L, and a yellow "firefighter" one with a blunt nose behind it.


I can't see the yellow "firefighter".
I hate to take this approach but do you it's possible that some Linux versions don't read the property tree totally or not fast enough pending in what custom home directory the aircraft is installed?
I suppose I can answer my own question here for testing purposes and install it the proper way.


Linux Mint 18.3


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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:55 pm

You're not seeing it *at all*? That is weird.

Anyway; no, I don't think Linux versions can influence that. At most, if you install flightgear from the distro itself (rather than compile from source or installing a binary release), you may get a different version. But seeing one of the twin otters and not the other is kind of inexplicable - the model name should be one of the first things to be sent, so that should come across one way or another.

It's possible that you have a super old DHC6 installed, then a few properties would get mixed up, but then again, that would affect both of them rather than just one (the blue one is the 2017 version, the yellow one is a customized one based on the most recent git version).

Anyway, this is what I'm seeing from the "Tower View Look From" view:

Image

Left one is the slightly older version, right one is brand new. I would expect people to see one of the following situations:

1. As in the picture
2. As in the picture, but both aircraft with the same nose style
3. As in the picture, but with the yellow aircraft missing its nose entirely
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:06 pm

Sorry I don't have either model installed.


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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby V12 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:15 pm

1100 miles to go.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby V12 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:42 pm

After 4:45 hours flight af FL640 landed with 12 tons of the fuel onboard.
Both DHC6 have nose :

Image

I have fgaddon version.
Last edited by V12 on Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:01 pm

Correction, just had another look, all I see is two yellow gliders, that would be because I don't have either one installed.


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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:26 am

tdammers wrote in Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:32 pm:Alright, I've got a version up on https://github.com/tdammers/dhc6 that should deal with the blunt-nose property more gracefully. If the property isn't received, it may still show the wrong nose, but it will always show *a* nose. Would love to see this tested (ping me if you can't figure out how to install from github).

Sorry - seems now I was not fast enough - no Twins at EDDF any more. But your new version is now installed - we could test the next hour or later on this evening during the triangle!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:03 am

the main thing is to also ensure folks are using the same MP protocol version as well as having the same craft installed... this is another example of why sticking to older FG versions is a BadThing<tm>...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:15 am

wkitty42 wrote in Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:03 am:the main thing is to also ensure folks are using the same MP protocol version as well as having the same craft installed

Do you have any idea how you force every FGFS user switching to new versions at the same time worldwide?
Would you not agree that it would be better if model-designers take care to support old and new versions?
(like tdammers proved to be possible! and basic design-rules worldwide in reality and simulators!)
??
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