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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Johan G » Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:34 pm

Slightly off topic about AI models

jomo wrote in Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:03 am:[...] I can only show models that are inside my local library - and that never can be all the worldwide available models in all formal or privet libraries. Right now my local libraries contain 203 models in 12.5 GB disks-pace! I guess that cannot grow + grow + grow. So I will not add every plane that will show up at EDDF! But I will install those models that are
a) contained in the FlightGear library (then available in the next session)
b) or new models tested/suggested by the designers (but pls limit it)

A long time ago some aircraft developers included an AI model with their aircraft. This, like most other AI models, would be very lightweight. The mechanism for these is still there even if it is not used as much, if at all. :(

In essence the model to be shown over Multiplayer is contained in the property "/sim/model/path" as a string with the path to the AC model or more commonly the the XML file with the animations, typically something like "Aircraft/<Aircraft>/Models/<Aircraft>.xml". This is sent over Multiplayer and the receiving FlightGear session first will look for the AI model "AI/Aircraft/<Aircraft>/Models/<Aircraft>.xml" or "...ac". If that fails it will look for the full model "Aircraft/<Aircraft>/Models/<Aircraft>.xml". If that too fails it will use the default AI model, which is the infamous yellow and blue glider.[1]

This is unfortunately not all that well known among the aircraft developers and was for a long time as far as I understand it barely or not documented.
____
[1] See also Howto:Animate models#File name of main model and animation XML file and Aircraft-set.xml#Not used for loading multiplayer aircraft on the FlightGear wiki.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby sfr » Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:39 pm

Hi Johan,

that's very interesting. Shouln't that be added at a more visible place in the Wiki? I'd guess having AI models for all a/c in fgaddon would improve the FPS performance on multiplayer and maybe also for VATSIM.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:07 am

Johan G wrote in Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:34 pm:Slightly off topic about AI models
In essence the model to be shown over Multiplayer is contained in the property "/sim/model/path" as a string with the path to the AC model or more commonly the the XML file with the animations, typically something like "Aircraft/<Aircraft>/Models/<Aircraft>.xml". This is sent over Multiplayer and the receiving FlightGear session first will look for the AI model "AI/Aircraft/<Aircraft>/Models/<Aircraft>.xml" or "...ac". If that fails it will look for the full model "Aircraft/<Aircraft>/Models/<Aircraft>.xml". If that too fails it will use the default AI model, which is the infamous yellow and blue glider.[1]

This is unfortunately not all that well known among the aircraft developers and was for a long time as far as I understand it barely or not documented.

Thank you very much for that info.
But it seems to me that is not really a solution for our OpenRadar/Or-Cam sessions at EDDF - even if all designers would follow the rules!.

Fact is: If that problem shows up I can solve it by downloading that Model from a given Library (there even may be the same model in different Designer library's and at different development-stati - but with the same model-name!). Of course you may now discuss if all designers follow the rules (as you describe) -- but I want to satisfy all pilot-participants in our EDDF-Triangle events. Do you have a suggestion for that?? That problem exists in reality - as you can see in all our films!!!

Pls do not suggest I should coordinate all users and designers of FGFS-models and/or enforcing
* model-design / structures
* only one librarie for same models
* for viewing all models e,g, with OR-Cam connected to OpenRadar
* etc

With that we may even be able to help people that use an older model XYZ (from the FGFS-library) to see the most perfect new model XYZ from another library during any event!

So if those problems show up I will continue to commit taking the models from the FGFS-library only! That may even help to convince designers puutting their design into the FGFS-library for everybody to find and or use those of course most fantastic new models.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:50 pm

One more to models not showing in movies
For new models there is a new Option in the "Multiplayer Settings":
"visible to all" vs. "visible to only 2017"

I have no idea why that was added - but it means that if you have a new model that may not be visible to others!! So pls always set this option to: "visible to all" -- otherwise many people will not be able to see you!! Again: Do not ask me for what that option is needed - because I believe all users should be able to see everybody --- is there anybody who just wants to see new models!?!?

So Please: Whenever You want to participate in the EDDF-Triangle pls do after starting :
1. Inside the cockpit open the top menu on the screen
2. Open "Multiplayer Settings"
3. Make sure for Compatibility is chosen: "Visible to all"

So we all may have the pleasure to see all about your pilot-skills with that beautiful model!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Johan G » Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:46 pm

Johan G wrote in Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:34 pm:Slightly off topic about AI models
[...]
This is unfortunately not all that well known among the aircraft developers [...]

jomo wrote in Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:07 am:Thank you very much for that info.
But it seems to me that is not really a solution for our OpenRadar/Or-Cam sessions at EDDF [...]

Pls do not suggest I should coordinate all users and designers of FGFS-models and/or enforcing [...]

I just wanted to mention that there is a slightly forgotten mechanism that could be more known. I would expect it to take many years before half of the aircraft in the FGAddon repository would have an AI model, even if everyone would be made aware of it.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:24 am

MUMBLE-voice problems
since Wednesday I have problems to operate my mumble:

Mumble starts and works ok on both of my PC's - BUT I am unable to set the "Push to talk" button! i.e. I can set it in the
* "Mumble Configuration" as "Push To Talk"
* and define under "Shortcuts" "Control_L" (that is on keyboard the lower left "Strg"-button)
but that does NOT work - on neither of the 2 PCs. (It did work since many years!)

Sending text-messages does work - the text gets transmitted but in addition I do get:
[10:19:31] You were denied Enter privileges in ATC.
[10:19:32] You were denied Enter privileges in Europe.
[10:19:40] You were denied Enter privileges in Germany.
[10:19:48] You joined Tower.

After using mumble now since many years there must have been changes on the server. But as contact in the info box is stated only:
* "Check FGExtend/Jetways comments for news" ??????????.
Are there any relations between jetways and mumble?

Anybody has an idea what was changed?? Or who could help?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:41 am

Johan G wrote in Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:46 pm:
Johan G wrote in Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:34 pm:Slightly off topic about AI models
[...]
This is unfortunately not all that well known among the aircraft developers [...]

jomo wrote in Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:07 am:Thank you very much for that info.
But it seems to me that is not really a solution for our OpenRadar/Or-Cam sessions at EDDF [...]

Pls do not suggest I should coordinate all users and designers of FGFS-models and/or enforcing [...]

I just wanted to mention that there is a slightly forgotten mechanism that could be more known. I would expect it to take many years before half of the aircraft in the FGAddon repository would have an AI model, even if everyone would be made aware of it.


Johan, wouldn’t it be cool to have an integrated basic model library in FlightGear where we have a collection of well known planes?
Maybe linked to an online repository and synchronized with terrasync?
That way it might be easy to upload such low-poly models...
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:46 pm

Code (): Select all
Mumble not Working

I do not know which of those below given answers are relevant for my problem!!

Till now I thought mumble is an independent radio-tool outside flight-gear - but off course usable parallel to FlightGear. The answers given below let me assume that the new french mumble-server can only be used for certain flightgear-models .

If that is true - I am sure we can find a independent mumble for our events.

Is it possible to get an explanation from the "radio-mumble.flight-gear.fr" team???
i.e can we use it outside Flight-gear ? Or do we need to find an independent source ????????????

This weekend we will not use "radio-mumble.flight-gear.fr" mumble at EDDF !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby mudrd8mz » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:20 pm

Hi. Sorry to hear about your troubles with mumble. I admit I was surprised you reported troubles with OpenRadar because I also assumed (and still believe) that those two are independent applications. I just wanted to share that I was able to install mumble during the weekend and I seemed to be able to use it independently on fgfs.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:26 pm

they are separate applications...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:01 am

[quote="jomo";p=374786]
Code (): Select all
Mumble not Working

Ok --> my MUMBLE/OpenRadar works again. Obviously the Mumble-Problem started with the automatic mumble-upgrading to 1.3.3 - which some days later was followed by 1.3.3.1 -- and that one works again --> we will test tonight. (Hopefully with lots of mumble-visitors at EDDF!).

But by checking the literature for that often called "FGcom-mumble" I got confused many times what really is meant. See e.g.:
* http://wiki.flightgear.org/FGCom-mumble (is the complete description)
* http://wiki.flightgear.org/FGCom-mumble (defines mumble 1.4.0 which is not yet released).

I often do not really understand what is meant - e.g. are those named items standalone items or depend on each other. In my understanding there must be 3 unique, self-contained parts:
* There are FGFS - planes (which may or may-not be able to support FGcom-mumble)
--> (they still are able to use the standalone mumble (as e.g. we do with OpenRadar)
* There is a FGCOM-mumble in work - which obviously is NOT A MUMBLE but a connection between the standalone FGFS-models and the standalone mumble
--> needed for the ATC-pie users)
* There is mumble - which is a NOT FGFS standalone product, used worldwide and is designed outside FGFS!!!
--> usable for everybody inside and/or outside FGFS !!

I strongly recommend to keep those 3 parts apart from each other - because
* nobody can ensure that all FGFS-designers will include some extra staff for mumble connections in old designs!
* the international - worldwide used mumble will not change because of unique user requirements! And it really would be a pity if in future we would have to use different "mumbles" for e.g. OpenRadar and/or ATC-pie.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby benih » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:39 pm

Hello Jomo,
jomo wrote:But by checking the literature for that often called "FGcom-mumble" I got confused many times what really is meant.

Let me help sort this out.
FGCom-mumble is a mumble plugin that simulates radio communication. It currently is in an alpha state, and I wait for mumble 1.4.0 to get released, because that is the first mumble-version that will support loading such plugins (it is not possible right now).
The plugin will in essence, when loaded by your stock mumble client, alter your local incoming audio stream based on a frequency model. It just does this, when inside a channel whose name starts with "fgcom-mumble", in every other channel it is just inactive.

jomo wrote: In my understanding there must be 3 unique, self-contained parts

Yes, FGFS with its planes, FGCom-mumble and mumble client are three individual parts. The last two is interleaved, because mumble-client will load FGCom-mumble plugin; the latter cannot run standalone on its own.

FGFS will supply internal data (position, callsign, radio stack configuration) to the FGCom-mumble plugin. That is accomplished by the fgcom-mumble FGFS protocol XML file, which must be enabled explicitely from the FGFS-Launcher. With that data, FGCom-mumble is able to figure out the used frequencies and positions of the participants of the radio net.
Of course, also other clients need to supply the data. ATC-Pie happens to have support for that already. (Openradar just basicly with COM1, but there is a feature request ticket pending already; and we have a workaround to use several radios too!).

jomo wrote:I strongly recommend to keep those 3 parts apart from each other - because
* nobody can ensure that all FGFS-designers will include some extra staff for mumble connections in old designs!
* the international - worldwide used mumble will not change because of unique user requirements! And it really would be a pity if in future we would have to use different "mumbles" for e.g. OpenRadar and/or ATC-pie.

As laid out above, they are already separated, and there is no need for an altered mumble installation. The plugin plugs in neatly into the mumble >= 1.4.0 client (hence the name "plugin").
There is also no need to alter FGFS, aside from loading a standard generic Protocol file by adding a simple startup parameter.
Also most Airplanes should support it out of the box - at least as long as they use the standard radio properties that FGFS provides (as a side note, that would already have made problems with standard FGCom, because we use the same properties; in fact FGCom-mumble is downward compatible to the FGCom-standalone protocol we already have for years in flightgear).


From the three-point list i can guess you also have questions regarding compatibility during sessions, which i can summarize as following.
Keep in mind, that FGCom-mumble will alter your own receiving radio stream locally, but only inside channels whose name start with "fgcom-mumble". That has the following consequences:
Code: Select all
| FGCom-Plugin | Inside fgcom-   | can you hear                             |
| loaded?      | mumble channel? | others?                                  |
|--------------|-----------------|------------------------------------------|
| Yes          | Yes             | Depends on radio model (frq, range, ...) |
| No           | Yes             | Yes, always                              |
| Yes          | No              | Yes, always                              |

The first row assumes that the plugin has valid data from flightgear or ATC-Pie, or <insert client here>. If you have the plugin loaded, and are in the channel, but no data reaches the plugin, you won't hear anybody.
That means, that only users with the plugin and intent to use it should join the fgcom-mumble channel. Users without plugin can hear everybody, but users enjoying radio simulation will not hear users without loaded plugin (or without data in the plugin).


I hope this helps a little, but if you have further questions, please let me know.

[edit] i simplified the wiki page a bit, highlighting more that just a mumble client is needed to install and use the plugin.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby mudrd8mz » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:45 pm

Good day.

I just returned to FGFS after a few years pause and started to enjoy EDDF ATC service again (many thanks for that).

Today I got confused. After landing at 07R I was taxiing to my favorite parking place V163 and around taxiway M14 I saw big red sign "07L". I asked ATC for clearance to cross it. I forgot the runway is now known as 07C indeed and I relied on the signs in the scenery rather that the EDDF layout PDF.

So clearly my Terra Sync scenery still contains the old signs / labels for runways in EDDF. Is it something I can fix myself? Is there some up to date scenery I can download? I was searching in http://wiki.flightgear.org/Frankfurt_am_Main_Airport but my impression from that text is that the automatically downloaded scenery should be reasonably up to date.

p.s. Thank you Jomo for recording the ATC sessions - it is interesting to review things from the ATC perspective.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby mudrd8mz » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:59 pm

I just noticed from the recording that Jomo's scenery is indeed much more detailed than mine is - I do not see none of those service cars on the parking place etc. So likely it's something on my side to fix?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby WoodSTokk » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:02 pm

mudrd8mz wrote in Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:59 pm:I just noticed from the recording that Jomo's scenery is indeed much more detailed than mine is - I do not see none of those service cars on the parking place etc. So likely it's something on my side to fix?


As far as i know, Jomo uses this scenery --> http://www.emmerich-j.de/eddf20161218.zip
Possible also this one from FGMEMBERS --> https://github.com/fgmembers-terragit/terragit
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