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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:16 pm

FlightPlans, Flight-Strips, SID/STARS, Navaids, missing waypoints, etc.
Seems we are getting into a big mess by using wrong words for unique problems:

Real FlightPlans (FP): you can get 1000's of those within the Internet fore each air-company TO/FROM each airport in the whole world according to RealFligts! You usually will not find there which final approach they will take - because they do not Know at Start-time how the weather-conditions, AP-load, etc. at the arrival airport will be in some hours/days... Also they do not play a big role in the FGFS-Multiplayer environment - because to my knowledge there is nobody in FGFS (besides the pilot himself) who is interested in that. Forgive me, if I am not interested in maintaining libraries of thousands of those plans! i.e. you can use whatever you want and/or is the easiest for you -- but the Flight-strip-informations I would like to get via Lenny - because they are always seen on the screens of all OpenRadar - worldwide (when the plan is within their area).

Flightstrips (FS): So of course in the REAL WORLD you may need those SID(Standard Instrument Departure) and STAR (Standard Approach) - but they depend on actual time, weather-changes, runways available to a given time, etc. Thus you may have noticed that even in the FGFS Rout-manager you have the possibility to plan your FP with/without the SID/STARs and runways - and add /change those when needed at Start/Arrivel - w/o changing the rest of data!
You may have noticed that I am always interested to Your plan via Lenny (http://flightgear-atc.alwaysdata.net) - because then I do not have to type the Start/End airports, altitude, etc. (there is a constant bridge OpenRadar/Lenny) --- I do usually not care about all the waypoints etc.
THAT ARE OF INTEREST for an ATC at the affected airport only. See the FlightStrips in all the movies from EDDF-Triangel (http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/films.html and/or http://wiki.flightgear.org/OpenRadarGui ... ip_Manager ) .

SID/STARS: Those you must have seen when you see the EDDF-films more often - some pilots start to become interested in those. Sorry enough their coding is very different for showing it on OpenRadar (painting the rout on screen) and the pilot (using just the waypoints from/to). In order to establish common SID/STARS I use the http://www.vacc-sag.org/airport/EDDF. Notice: Those only show the surrounding of one unique airport. That is (to my knowledge) the most detailed data being always updated when changed in reality, and they are charge-free!!. I did take that one for EDDF and converted it to an "OpenRadar-Style" version - you can see those codes in your ../OpenRadar/data/routes - but again: They are based on the VATSIM charts/date -- you cannot use them for your AP-RoutManager -- they only show on radar where you should be flying!

Flight-plans and FGFS: You may notice that not all Waypoints that are used in those SID/STARS are implemented in FGFS - but the VATSIM charts always show you the GPS-data for them - so you can define them for your own needs in you FGFS RouteManager FGFS.

I am sorry: But there is no set of data fulfilling all those needs for pilots, ATCs, etc.! And I do not see anyone who will do the work to combine that - and maintain it for years to come!!! If you are interested: Be very welcome!!
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:32 pm

Yes I was referring to SID when I mentioned "Takeoff Waypoints".
And yes I do realize that on a long flight you really can't select which runway you will be using because of weather change.
I guess what I want to achieve is if I create a flight plan with a SID that it can be used by the ATC. If this makes any sense.
But don't worry I'll proceed with caution since this is new for me.


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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Wecsje » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:04 pm

@AAL545

When you make a FP, you will only plan the waypoints starting from the last SID fix, to the first STAR fix. Simbrief will give you a SID/STAR suggestion, but most of the time you will not use these. The SID will be assigned by ATC when you request your initial startup/IFR clearance (this way you also know what runway to expect). The STAR is assigned by the ATC at your arrival airport. Most of the time, STAR's are not runway bound, SID's however are. Transitions (such as they use normally at EDDF), are semi- runway bound, ie: in Germany they will cover one RW direction.

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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:47 am

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense. As we say in America, "you the man".
If I may add to all of your suggestions/ opinions regarding this topic, I suppose what's also important is we all follow the same rules. (Makes it easier for the pilot and the ATC)
Thanks again guys for trying to help me out.



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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:04 am

Hi Jomo,

Sorry if I didn't get your explanation regarding using FP's. (To use or not to use).
The reason I want to use a FP is to manage my flight level on approach at EDDF using MP. (Or any controlled airport)
What has happened to me a few times when approaching EDDF and you are busy with other pilots (which is okay), but to also deal with idiots and I am flying past my TOD like today.
Well my idea back fired on me today (Saturday)because I fast Metro 2000 feet too high. I guess I could just approach the 100 mile radar zone at a manageable flight level.
I'm open to ideas on this one.


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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:38 am

AAL545 wrote in Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:04 am:The reason I want to use a FP is to manage my flight level on approach at EDDF using MP.

Good question for a very complicated matter with many many variables - and thus many many more or less complicated calculations (depending on altitude, descent-rate, weather, aircraft, speed, etc etc)

If you fly by a good SID/STAR sheet there is given what altitudes you should have at a given point! see e.g.
http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/ ... te-to-mda/

The easiest way is using FGS-Routmanger: Just tell it the waypoint with a given altitude - and that will do it!

I am lazy and use a very rough "rule of thumb": See your Final to EDDF: ILS as the standard starts at 3000 ft altitude in about 10 mi. distance! That is pretty easy to calculate! BUT again: that is a very rough guess - but monitor what is happening - and you will get close to what you look for.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby AAL545 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:27 pm

Hi Jomo,

The FP from SimBrief.com is pretty good but that doesn't work inside the EDDF 100 mile radar zone.
Correct me if I'm wrong but any FL change within the zone isn't allowed without approval from the ATC.




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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:20 pm

AAL545 wrote in Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:27 pm:Hi Jomo, Correct me if I'm wrong but any FL change within the zone isn't allowed without approval from the ATC.

Right and wrong:
Right: If you are controlled by any ATC you need ATC clearance for any change (independent of inside or outside 100mi!)!
Wrong: You do not need to be controlled within the the EDDF-100mi

within the Ctrl-Zone of EDDF (see the marks in the Radar-Films) you must stay above fl100 (or get neglected if uncontrolled)
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby NL-Ray » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:27 pm

AAL545 wrote in Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:57 am:Hi Jomo,

What site do you recommend using to create a flight plan that I can upload into my .fgfs /Export folder?


Paul
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I use onlineflightplanner.org, there you can download your route (.fgfp format) directly into the export folder and use it in Flightgear. Be careful though, not all waypoints are recognized by Flightgear so always check your route on the in-game map. And it shows how much fuel you need for the flight too.

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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Clive2670 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:49 pm

I would agree Raymond, The amount of times I have downloaded a 'plan, implemented in flightgear, Started the flight, then all of a sudden the plane "does an about turn" flies 2500Nm north of its original easterly track is quite often, But once you spot these waypoints and remove them. It is a very good planner. I find if i activate the route at the gate then go into Flightgear PHI "check" the route box and the "Navigation" box it will tell you the rogue waypoints for easy removal. Also like you said Raymond, the files MUST go into the "export" folder otherwise saving of the route after removing waypoints is not possible and you will have to remove those rogue waypoints everytime you use the flightplan. Also it is easier if you create a shortcut on your desktop of the roaming folder as it can be a bit difficult to locate!
Thanks Clive aka: G-BLS01
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Wecsje » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:21 pm

And that is why you should use Simbrief in combination with SkyVector .gpx files. It will result in never having bad waypoints, as SkyVector defines the location of these, instead of letting FlightGear do this.

Regards,

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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Octal450 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:53 pm

@Clive
That is likely due to the strange way the 777's AFDS computes waypoint tracking.

Kind Regards,
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:33 pm

New SIDs
Last week I updated my SID/STARs for the EDDF OpenRadar, according to the new ones on http://www.vacc-sag.org/airport/EDDF
You might check if your SID/STARs are on the current level.

The changes are not very big - mostly only the Names did change (e.g.former "TOBAK 8E" is now "TOBAK 9D" - the route is still the same.)

By the way: It is nice to see that more and more visitors are using the SID/STAR.
jomo / ATCjomo + EDDFjo + EDDFjo1 + EDDFjo2
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Wecsje » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:09 am

That is not exactly how it works... If TOBAK8E became TOBAK9D, this would indicate a designator change, and thus a different aircraft limit on the SID. AFAIK your SID's were so old that the usual left hand sharp turn right after departure for all aircraft but light ones did not exist yet. Which means that there would be a drastic change on your screen. I would advise to check out what designators are assigned to what aircraft sorts or operating hours.

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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby Wecsje » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:22 am

I've went and checked both SID's as I thougt TOBAK8E still exists...

And yes, it does, TOBAK8E and TOBAK9D are two currently existing departures for both RW 07C and 07R. Which means either you already had the latest SID's which isn't the case, as can be seen in your videos, or you did something wrong with updating...

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