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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:50 pm

To all customers of the EDDF-Triangel: MP down again
The usual MP-servers are not working again!

We will use http://mpmap03.flightgear.org/

You can also set it in your FGFS-Menue-Bar at multiplayer -> multiplayer-settings
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby legoboyvdlp » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:11 am

Hi,
Thanks for the service a few days ago.

It seems you could not read my messages in mpchat - but I looked on the movie and they were there? I assumed that was the same problem as I experienced a few months ago where ATC could not read my messages. Regardless, it was sorted out in the end and I look forward to flying again.


Also, not sure if this will help or not, but I noticed quite a bit of lag in the ORCAM (aircraft jumping about a bit) - maybe the mppatch in the multiplayer dialog might help there? :)

and finally, some of your movies seem to be down - for example, this one?
http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/201 ... 759-98.mp4
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:53 pm

Code (): Select all
Re: EDDF-Triangle

Hi legoboyvdlp
In general pls try to define exactly what you mean (e.g. what mppatch in multiplayer? Where does that patch come from? Is it in normal release? etc).

some of your movies seem to be down - for example, this one?
http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/201 ... 759-98.mp4

I checked the movie - it is ok. Its full name shows the date 20180824 - that means it is not online any more. If you need it I can get it from History and send it to you - but be aware: That are very big files. Because of that I keep those files only for 1 to 2 weeks online!

It seems you could not read my messages in mpchat - but I looked on the movie and they were there?

Did you check if it was still there when you noticed you missed my reaction to it? Check in the movie: When there are many MPchat users the msgs may roll out of the field very fast -- so ATC may be busy and not notice that (disappeared) line. So I suggest you use mumble - that is not so easy to overlook!
rgds
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby legoboyvdlp » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:38 pm

Hi,

As far as I know any version after 2017.2 (?) will have it - it is found under Multiplayer > Lag Settings in the menu

To use:
Enter this in the console: I see you are on Ubuntu, this is for Windows, but there should be an equivalent

Code: Select all
ping MULTIPLAYERSERVER


It will contact the server and return the time to contact it. For example, 52ms.

Next, in the lag settings dialogue, first turn the master switch on, set the offset to the ping time - +0.052 seconds in this example- and then, finally, enable the Apply to Close MP checkbox. You can adjust the range at which it is enabled using a slider.


This patch simply means that aircraft do not "jitter" and "rubber and" so much over multiplayer - no matter what server either the ORCAM or the pilot is on
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:50 am

legoboyvdlp wrote in Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:11 am:Also, not sure if this will help or not, but I noticed quite a bit of lag in the ORCAM (aircraft jumping about a bit) - maybe the mppatch in the multiplayer dialog might help there? :)

I am pretty sure that that is not the reason - BUT:
Consider that my PC deals during ATC Session with lots of Programs concurrently - Most using MP independently:
* OpenRadar MP for Radar-Picture + messages (not from MP-server direct -- but controlled from OR-server via network!)
* OR-Cam for selected MP-targets from OpenRadar - Server (20frams/sec) -- direct from MP-server
* Firefox for FlightGear Server online map (MP2)
* Firefox for FlightGear Server online map (MP3)
*Vokoscreen for recording Screen (1920x1080) running 15 frames per second (is that what you believe is not enough? Well: Than I need a new PC! Who pays for it?)
*mumble as Radio
*files for checking available resources (e.g. planes)
*text-file for additional "standard sentences"
++ and finally consider that the networks (at least in Germany) are very often overloaded --> i.e. there are delays. I guess every online-gamer konows about that problem (even the government knows it and promises improvements!)

I guess that is quite some load/problem (for a poor ATC-PC).
If you really see a problem let me know the complete file-name and the film-second where the problem shows up.
rgds
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:29 am

What I make of the videos I've seen so far is that the jumpiness is almost certainly caused by the screen recording; ORCAM reports a solid 20 fps, so I bet it looks smooth on jomo's computer.

Network flukes do of course happen, and I regularly see MP aircraft jump around a little in my own local FG session; I think that is, to a degree, inevitable - you simply can't compensate for lagged or missing updates.

On a completely unrelated note; I tried requesting a flight plan for departure from EDDF yesterday, but never got a reply. I assumed that this was the problem again where chat messages get lost, so after waiting 20 minutes or so, I called it quits. But watching the video now, I can see that the request did in fact arrive, so I'm wondering what happened there.

BTW., the reason I requested in MP chat rather than mumble is because I wanted to file a proper route with waypoints and a SID, and dictating all that over radio can get cumbersome. I'd like to know what the best way of doing this would be - should I paste the requested route in MP chat but issue the actual request by radio? Should I file on alwaysdata and then just request "as filed"?
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:13 pm

tdammers wrote in Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:29 am:On a completely unrelated note; I tried requesting a flight plan for departure from EDDF yesterday, but never got a reply. I assumed that this was the problem again where chat messages get lost, so after waiting 20 minutes or so, I called it quits. But watching the video now, I can see that the request did in fact arrive, so I'm wondering what happened there.
Pls always tell me the film-filename + minute and your ID ( I did not find a "tdammers" in the movie), so I can check what was happening - otherwise we will never achieve a solution! I am sure there were no msgs lost: If you see them in the movie they have been on my screen - otherwise they could not have been copied from my screen into the movie!
---> And again: I am sure all FGFS-Pilots miss some PopUp messages once in a while - because they disappear prior you were able to read them! Of course that happens even more to an ATC that is busy with several pilots in parallel.

tdammers wrote in Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:29 am:BTW., the reason I requested in MP chat rather than mumble is because I wanted to file a proper route with waypoints and a SID, and dictating all that over radio can get cumbersome. I'd like to know what the best way of doing this would be - should I paste the requested route in MP chat but issue the actual request by radio? Should I file on alwaysdata and then just request "as filed"?
The best way of doing this is the only available technical solution: http://flightgear-atc.alwaysdata.net/ !!!!! From the Flight-plan filed there it can be called from FlightGear and also OpenRadar - without time-consuming dictating and misunderstandings and corrections etc.etc...!! ATC definitely will not input for you a complete FlightPlan! ATC needs only Destination ICAO + planned cruise ALTITUDE + maybe SID and/or STAR. For ATC you then can state "filed on alwaysdata" (or synonym "Lenny") --> the ATC then can pull it down into OR with a few mouse-clicks..

BTW: Why did you just wait 20Min without a reminder in mumble and/or chat? (In chat you may have to try several times if ATC is rather busy - so better in mumble!!!)

Thanx for taking the time placing it here - so all can profit from that.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:38 pm

jomo wrote in Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:13 pm:Pls always tell me the film-filename + minute and your ID ( I did not find a "tdammers" in the movie), so I can check what was happening - otherwise we will never achieve a solution! I am sure there were no msgs lost: If you see them in the movie they have been on my screen - otherwise they could not have been copied from my screen into the movie!
---> And again: I am sure all FGFS-Pilots miss some PopUp messages once in a while - because they disappear prior you were able to read them! Of course that happens even more to an ATC that is busy with several pilots in parallel.


The video in question is this one: http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/201 ... 5-103.mp4; I'm NL256. No hard feelings either way, I just couldn't tell whether you had missed the messages, or whether there had been a technical problem. I had noticed that you were busy, so I didn't want to hurry you.

jomo wrote in Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:13 pm:The best way of doing this is the only available technical solution: http://flightgear-atc.alwaysdata.net/ !!!!! From the Flight-plan filed there it can be called from FlightGear and also OpenRadar - without time-consuming dictating and misunderstandings and corrections etc.etc...!! ATC definitely will not input for you a complete FlightPlan! ATC needs only Destination ICAO + planned cruise ALTITUDE + maybe SID and/or STAR. For ATC you then can state "filed on alwaysdata" (or synonym "Lenny") --> the ATC then can pull it down into OR with a few mouse-clicks..


OK, cool, will try that again. I remember this going wrong in the past, where the waypoints didn't get through, so I just got a direct to the destination, which obviously works, it's just that following the proper waypoints is more interesting IMO.

jomo wrote in Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:13 pm:BTW: Why did you just wait 20Min without a reminder in mumble and/or chat? (In chat you may have to try several times if ATC is rather busy - so better in mumble!!!)
[/quote]

Well, that one is mostly my own fault. Didn't want to hurry you since you were busy dealing with less competent pilots and stuff like that, and after a while with no response, I realized what the time was.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:28 am

Sorry
I had a disk crash last week
and after reinstalling I happened to choose a wrong setting in the recorder - so in the movies (yesterday 20181201) there is no sound.
Sorry - should be fixed for tonight.

Another point
there is now a new terrorist - in the latest movie the "EDDFops". The worst idiot I ever noticed:
1. He asked for some help in how to work OR - he got it
2. Then he disturbed with his ATC-pie our recording of models - but rejected to use OR instead of PIE
3. Then he tried to give absolute idiotic ATC-advises to the pilots

--> pls always make sure you check who is sending advises!!!

Normally that is EDDFjomo - there you can be pretty sure that that is a trust-able UID
Even better is using mumble!!
Most of these idiots are afraid to use it - because they could be recognized by their voice!! Or they are even to stupid for using it!!

Anyhow: For pilots it is much easier to use MUMBLE instead of typing all the time!!
For installation see e.g. http://www.emmerich-j.de/mumble/mumble.html
I hope we do not get more of those idiots for Xmas.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:35 pm

This was almost certainly incompetence rather than an attempt at a hostile takeover or a disruption of service.

Lots of people go, oh, yeah, this is a fun game, let's play online, without realizing that there's a ton of community habits and unwritten rules that the game itself does not and cannot enforce.

If we wanted a "proper" solution for this, we would have to build a different kind of MP environment; one where you'd run your own server for ATC sessions, or maybe set up a group that organizes MP sessions on their own servers, and then you'd need to register for those servers in order to connect - pretty much like most online multiplayer games work. Then those sessions could actually be moderated in a meaningful way, because now callsigns would be linked to accounts and e-mail addresses, which would allow for things like banning, whitelisting, etc. Such a system would also make it easier to organize things like ATC sessions for training new ATC, sessions for pilots who aren't experienced with flying under ATC yet, and other such things, without disrupting anyone else.

But as it stands, FG's MP is free-for-all, almost entirely anonymous, and pretty much an honor system; so this kind of nonsense is to be expected, and impossible to get rid of entirely. And at the same time, there is a bucketload of advantages to the current situation; most importantly, that it makes FG MP very low-threshold, you literally just enable MP in the menu, and you're in.

Also, labelling such people as "terrorists" and "idiots" isn't going to help anyone - best case it does nothing, worst case we lose a potential future ATC, or even enrage them to the point of coming back just to ruin it for everyone else.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby wkitty42 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:14 pm

tdammers wrote in Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:35 pm:Lots of people go, oh, yeah, this is a fun game,

that's their first mistake :mrgreen:
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby tdammers » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:13 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:14 pm:
tdammers wrote in Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:35 pm:Lots of people go, oh, yeah, this is a fun game,

that's their first mistake :mrgreen:


Yeah, kind of my point. Or part of it anyway.
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby jomo » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:27 pm

tdammers wrote in Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:35 pm:If we wanted a "proper" solution for this, we would have to build a different kind of MP environment; one where you'd run your own server for ATC sessions, or maybe set up a group that organizes MP sessions on their own servers, and then you'd need to register for those servers in order to connect - pretty much like most online multiplayer games work.
Yes - that was already discussed very often - and most of people (including me) do not see this technical way as a possible solution!

But you may have noticed, that those incidents were drastically reduced now at EDDF-Triangle - not by technical things but by making clear that we do not accept such behavior; e.g. by telling those "WrongDoers" that we do not accept that - and if that does not help we just neglect them. That is pretty much what parents do in order to train there "wonderful little monsters" - e.g. making sure that those Baby's, Monsters, Idiots, etc understand what is OK and what NOT. Also later, when they want to join any group (sport, school, teamwork, etc etc) they must be advised of what is OK and what is just not acceptable. And it is up them to change - or stay outside!

So, all I would wish from all of You is:
-- help us to tell those "lovely Babies, Monsters, Idiots" that they do wrong
-- and avoid excusing their doing because there is no technical way to avoid those problems
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Re: EDDF-Triangle

Postby V12 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:52 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:14 pm:that's their first mistake :mrgreen:

And the biggest...
Fly high, fly fast - fly Concorde !
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